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Breeding Information?

20K views 68 replies 10 participants last post by  Kukla 
#1 · (Edited)
I came across this, while reading on Sandees' site..

The next thing to avoid is breeding the same visual color mutation to one another. An example would be to breed a blue mutation to another blue mutation. While this is acceptable with other types of color mutation birds, parrotlets have not been bred long enough to eliminate genetic flaws with this type of breeding. This type of pairing can produce a variety of congenital and/or genetic problems such as low fertility, infertility, high instances of dead in shell embryos, smaller clutches, abnormally sized chicks, higher chick mortality rates, failure to thrive, offspring with weakened immune systems, abnormal feathers, birth defects and lethal genes.

I'm not a breeder, I really don't understand breeding to be honest. Well to the extent of being a "good breeder"...A "quality breeder"...There's a lot a person needs to know...But, I am just bored and ended up on this page of her site...I kind of ended up lost in the information...

A color mutation, would be something like a pied, or albino, right? My last handfed parrotlet came from mom and dad birds both being green. Are you not suppose to breed two greens together? My current p'let came from mom (blue) and dad (green). What if you wanted to breed a blue to a blue...Not a pastel/pied/dilute or anything but just basics.....

I feel confused LOL......



NOTE: I am not breeding..but just it's something I think is good to know...Especially for when a person is purchasing a parrotlet. I know a lot of people who are breeding greens to greens. Blue to blues...American Yellows to American Yellows....etc...If this is a wrong process, that eliminates out a lot of breeders I once considered "good"...
 
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#2 ·
Green is the normal wild color so you can breed them to each other. Blue to blue is a no no, as well as yellow to yellow, etc.... I think even yellow to blue would not be good. The best way to breed is a green split to another color and a visual of that other color, i.e.: a green split to blue to a blue. Once you get into pieds and so on it gets more complicated. If I'm not mistaken both parents need to be pied to get pied babies, but I could be wrong.

Kim
 
#3 ·
Ah...complicated...But as I dug deeper, I've found that basically anything other then "green" is considered a "color mutation". Which makes sense. I just never really thought about it. I know green is their "wild/natural" color, but I just figured I guess to keep specific colors you should breed a blue to a blue. Or whatever, right. In my head it made sense. But I've seen a few people around here selling breeding pairs that are for example both American Yellows. That would be bad to my understanding...
 
#4 ·
I thought it was bad to breed a receding mutation to another receding (witch I am still unsure how you can tell when your have a receding mutation in the genes). I have been told it was ok to breed like a yellow to a yellow but not blue to blue. I also thought it would be ok to breed like a blue to a yellow for example and mix and match mutations as long as they have strong genes and healthy babies. I'm still learning about mutations and what is good to breed in colors.
 
#5 ·
A serious, die hard, old school, breeder would not even breed yellow to yellow. I could be wrong, but I think if you breed yellow to yellow, unless both parents are split to the same color (like blue) you would only get yellow babies. I don’t think you would even get green.

When pairing my linnies I chose birds that would give me a good variety of colored babies. I’m now thinking about breeding p’lets (thanks Leah!! Lol). I’m thinking about getting a little dilute blue girl. Dilute blue is a combination mutation of yellow and blue. So her best mate would be a green double split to yellow and blue.

An even better pair is 2 greens that are split to the same color(s). You would likely get more greens than anything but the babies would be strong and healthy.

Kim
 
#10 ·
Rio, I found 4 sites last night that suggested away from breeding specifically an american yellow to a yellow. Just for the simple fact some birds you can breed color to color without issues. But they've been bred in captivity for several hundreds - thousands of generations. Whereas the parrotlets haven't and I guess causes more of a inbred parrotlet?

I'm not a breeder but that was a major example of what not to breed together. Most of the sites recommended to breed back to a "wild" parrotlet. But to my knowledge you cannot get "wild caught" parrotlets anymore. So unless they just mean a pure line without any underlining colors in it?

Maybe a breeder could confirm.

Needless to say, Most of the sites seemed to recommend to breed back to a bird with green. To keep more pure lines? I'm not sure when you start getting into the pieds etc.

I know any bird with red eyes should not be bred to another red eyed bird. But that goes with reptiles as well....
 
#11 ·
P'let genetics is much more complicated than linnies.

A very serious breeder will not breed visual mutation to visual mutation, any color combination. They breed visual to a green split for that same visual color. But the breeder website that lmcrumley provided above is selling proven pairs of the same color, yellow to yellow and blue to blue.

I'm a member of a few p'let yahoo email groups and the breeders there would have a huge fit. They didn't want me to buy Dinky from lmcrumley because she doesn't know for sure the genetics of her pair. As you can see I didn't care, I bought him and don't regret it for a second!! :D

Kim
 
#69 ·
Can someone explain what split means? Like a green split? And how would you know what the split is if you have a green Parrotlet? I have a blue/gray Parrotlet and I’m getting a green pied female and I am thinking of breeding them. My breeder said that my boy should be bred with green, green marble, green pied or American yellow to keep genetics strong. Do you guys agree with that?
Here is my boy Blu ;)
46603
 
#12 ·
i'm glad you did too kim : ) you can tell them that some one has to start some where and earn the right to be called breeders. so far we can safely say my breeding pair is a green split to europien yellow. we will find out with this next clutch if I get any other colors besides green and yellow.
 
#13 ·
I agree a lot with kimi.

It really depends on who you are talking to. A lot of the "older" breeders are stating to bred back to a green. Or a split green with the sharing color mate. Yellow/blue etc. But they also said, at least what I've found, that there isn't enough evidence to prove that you SHOULDN'T breed a specific color morph to the same color morph. But just that they have noticed certain things, birth defects, infertility etc. The babies being born and dying...They believe it's because the color pairing. So a lot of the breeders are recommending to breed back to a green with any color morph to weed out those problems and produce "strong, healthy" birds. Some sites when into detail stating that they believe breeding lets say, an american yellow to an american yellow, weakens the parrotlet breeding colony genetics and puts out poor parrotlet specimens. This is at least what I understood.

I just go a lot by what Sandee from Parrotlet Ranch believes as she's well really the queen breeder of parrotlets. She I would say myself, is the most knowledgable parrotlet breeder out there. And has been breeding parrotlets for 20+ years. So her information is pretty dedicated.
 
#15 ·
I agree a lot with kimi.

I just go a lot by what Sandee from Parrotlet Ranch believes as she's well really the queen breeder of parrotlets. She I would say myself, is the most knowledgable parrotlet breeder out there. And has been breeding parrotlets for 20+ years. So her information is pretty dedicated.
What does Sandee say about mutation to mutation breeding? I haven't gone to her website in quite a few years. I didn't have any p'lets. :(

Kim
 
#17 · (Edited)
[FONT=Gill Sans, Gill Sans MT, sans-serif]Parrotlet Breeding Pair #20[/FONT]






[FONT=georgia,palatino]Mutation:[/FONT][FONT=georgia,palatino]American Yellow[/FONT]​


[FONT=georgia,palatino]American Yellow[/FONT][FONT=georgia,palatino]Sex-Born:[/FONT][FONT=georgia,palatino]Male - 2010[/FONT]​
[FONT=georgia,palatino]Female - 2010[/FONT]
[FONT=georgia,palatino]Offspring:[/FONT][FONT=georgia,palatino]100% American Yellow Babies[/FONT]
[FONT=georgia, palatino]Bonded Pair[/FONT]








[FONT=Gill Sans, Gill Sans MT, sans-serif]Parrotlet Breeding Pair #47[/FONT]






[FONT=georgia,palatino]Mutation:[/FONT][FONT=georgia,palatino]Blue[/FONT]​


[FONT=georgia,palatino]Blue[/FONT][FONT=georgia,palatino]Sex-Born:[/FONT][FONT=georgia,palatino][FONT=georgia,palatino]Male - 2010[/FONT][/FONT]​
[FONT=georgia,palatino]Female - 2010[/FONT]
[FONT=georgia,palatino]Offspring:[/FONT][FONT=georgia,palatino]100% Blue Parrotlet Babies[/FONT]
 
#18 ·
They say that in the wild mutations are rare and they don't survive as well. But if you have 2 healthy birds of the same color and want to breed them, I say go ahead. If you end up with a high death rate and weak, unhealthy babies, stop breeding them. ?? Just a thought. :)

Kim
 
#20 ·
I would deffently go for healty babies. Granted I wouldlove to get some other colors then green but if it's at the cost of week babies then that would be a no for me. I'll breed green with like a yellow or a white and get a higher chance of healty babys then to breed white with white and get unhealthy babyies.
 
#22 ·
I feel the same way. And if you have a pair of like colors, blue to blue etc, and have problems with the babies so you choose to no longer breed that pair, what do you do with them? If they are young enough you could split them up and give them new mates, but that's sad and might not work. :(

I found a pair for sale up north. $200 for the pair, cage and all. They're both about a yr old and bonded. She said that she planned on breeding them this spring but has decided to go in a different direction. Both birds are green pied with one more heavily pied than the other.

Kim
 
#24 ·
Sandees exact words:

The next thing to avoid is breeding the same visual color mutation to one another. An example would be to breed a blue mutation to another blue mutation. While this is acceptable with other types of color mutation birds, parrotlets have not been bred long enough to eliminate genetic flaws with this type of breeding. This type of pairing can produce a variety of congenital and/or genetic problems such as low fertility, infertility, high instances of dead in shell embryos, smaller clutches, abnormally sized chicks, higher chick mortality rates, failure to thrive, offspring with weakened immune systems, abnormal feathers, birth defects and lethal genes.

Along those lines, one should never breed a red-eyed bird to another red-eyed bird. Even with other types of birds, one never should breed red-eyed birds together. This means fallows, albinos, cinnamons and lutinos should never be bred together. Severe birth defects have been known to occur such as blindness, absence of eyes and death.

Finally, it is important to also have normal wild-type Pacific parrotlets that are completely mutation-free to outcross with your mutation birds. This is the only way to ensure health, strength, vigor and vitality to your mutation lines. Otherwise, after a few generations, you can end up with a 'genetic bottleneck' with birds that have numerous genetic and increasingly severe genetic flaws.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Initially why I was reading up on this was because someone on a group I'm in, parrotlet who was yellow died. It was young, but they said from the get-go the bird had liver problems. Of course this can occur with any animal. Some are weak some are strong. Not all will survive a long healthy life. But needless to say, as the conversation went on. The person said the parents were both yellows. Then it got rather "heated" stating that people who are breeding the incorrect morphs together without knowing their "stuff" are producing low quality babies. And are infact hurting the parrotlet species in the long run. They were saying how you should be breeding to a "wild" bird to produce quality species of parrotlets. So I just was bored and decided to just read about it. Needless to say a lot of it went over my head because I haven't bred anything ever...But it just begins to become a "eye opener" when looking at breeders. I know people who are breeding blues to blues. And it may just be because they didn't research into it? It could be about the "buck" and just trying to produce birds to have a income..I don't know...But after the whole situation it became a eye opener. I know now what to look for in breeders, when getting my next parrotlet..


I just want to add, look at Bodie, she got her parrotlet from Sandee and that lil green dude is 13/14 now...Pretty damn good.
 
#27 ·
Thank you sugar.skulls, I totally agree and that's why I didn't start breeding p'lets years ago when I had my first 2. I wanted to make sure if I did it at all that I did it right.

With my linnies all three of my pairs are green series with blue series. But linnie genetics are much less complicated.

Kim
 
#28 ·
Wow...I am mightily confused by all this conversation. I don't know the history behind my female yellow at all but may be able to find out. If she is a "mutation" and my male is the result of a yellow pair...perhaps I should not be breeding my two yellows at all. I am conscientious about this and do not want to weaken any parrotlet lineages. My birds are already bonding a bit but not 100% yet as my male (Rio) is only 5-months old). At this point I'm thinking I should be pairing him with a green female? I am not accurately sorting out what is being discussed on this forum as there are mixed messages. Can anybody please make it clearer for me?
 
#29 ·
Rio any color other then green is considered a mutation. So your two yellows are mutations and by some breeders standards wouldn't breed them together. You could either breed your female to a green male or green split to yellow. Or you could breed your yellow male to a green or a green split to yellow female. That would be a healthier and stronger genetic breeding pair - to my understanding.
 
#30 ·
Thanks...things are a bit clearer now. I know my male comes from two yellow parents (one of which is split to yellow from green). I have a request out to the seller of my female to see if I can find out if she is split to yellow from green. I hope she is! Otherwise I really don't want to breed my yellows. Disappointment but I'm learning and will do the best for the species. My understanding is that my yellows need to have one green parent in order to be called "split to yellow." Is that correct? And that split needs to be no further back than parents? In other words the male having a green grandparent is not good enough?
My sincere appreciation for the clear answers you have provided.
 
#42 · (Edited)
I have just learned that my female yellow has a green (wild) green father and a yellow mother. My female being yellow would be a yellow split to green? I was glad to know she has the wild green parent.
Can mutations be split to green? My friend has a yellow/green bonded pair and they just had a green baby. Would that make the baby a green split to yellow? Can a green offspring also be a mutation?
I am still waiting for a reply from the Parrotlet Ranch breeder on my questions and hope to hear from her.
Rio --- I hope I'm able to help you...

In Pacific Parrotlets they cannot be split to Green. It is the "wild" natural colour of the species. The Avatar picture you have are of two Dilute Pacific Parrotlets. Because this colouration looks "yellow" for years people mistakenly called them "American Yellows" (and still do), but in actuality they are Dilute.

Since you have you two visual Dilute Pacific's and if you wanted to breed the most healthy babies possible you would pair your two birds up with visual Green birds that are split to Dilute.

Basically to go about it properly, you have a male Dilute and you would find a really good breeder who can guarantee a Green female split to Dilute to pair with your male. For truly excellent bird breeding purposes you would also purchase an unrelated Green male split to Dilute to pair with your female Dilute.

The pairing's would then be as follows:
Dilute (Male) x Green/ Dilute (Female) = 50% visual Dilute & 50% Green/ Dilute that would be both male and female.

Green/ Dilute (Male) x Dilute (Female) = 50% visual Dilute & 50% Green/ Dilute that would be both male and female.

Since these new birds would be unrelated to each other and the two you have now are also unrelated to each other you could breed any babies from your new pairs together, but only first generation.

For example: You get your new Green split to Dilute birds and you pair them up to breed like I've described. The first time they breed you would get visual Dilute and Green/ Dilute from both of your new pairs. If you wanted to you could keep a baby from each; a male and a female. Say you kept a male Dilute and a female Green/ Dilute.

So you would then have three pairs:
Dilute (Male) x Green/ Dilute (Female) -- Original Pair
Green/ Dilute (Male) x Dilute (Female) -- Original Pair
Dilute (Male) x Green/ Dilute (Female) -- Pair Created out of babies from your original pair

Now you would have three pairs that would be able to produce Dilute Pacific Parrotlets and they would be as healthy as they possibly could be genetically. With proper and varied diet as well as excellent care you would be well on your way to offering some really well bred Dilute Pacific Parrotlets as well as and Green Pacific Parrotlets split to Dilute for people to keep as pets or even someday add to their own breeding programme.

Of course I'm not saying you Must purchase two new Parrotlets to pair with your current birds, but if you did and got the one's I described you would then be creating the healthiest pairings possible.

A lot of people take shortcuts when it comes to Pacific Colour mutations. Most breeders breed colour to colour: blue to blue; Dilute to Dilute and while it is not the worst possible thing a breeder can do, it does produce babies that are not as healthy as they could be.

As a person who loves the new colour mutations I really, really wish that more breeders would choose their favourite two or three colours or combinations and use splits or double splits to achieve the necessary visual babies that they wish. It used to be how breeders, bred. Unfortunately it is becoming more and more rare for breeders to take the slow path when it comes to breeding these exciting new coloration's, but perhaps someday they will again...

For me to hear you want to learn how to get the healthiest babies that excites me to no end! You truly want to learn how you should breed before you just breed the birds you have.
 
#31 ·
Rio, I'm not 100% sure, a breeder could confirm..To my understanding, even if your babies are "splits" you should still breed back to a green mate. Or a green mate that is visually green but has a yellow parent then making your green bird classified as a green parrotlet split to yellow. Therefore your pair would or possibly could produce then green and yellow babies. Where if you breed the two yellows, you could get other mutations but most likely would get yellow babies from two yellow parents. The way I gathered it also from Sandees site is that any yellow should be bred back to a green mate, everytime to produce the highest quality babies. Regardless of what the breeding pairs parents were? It's just to prevent inbreeding as the genes are to closely matched.

I give you kudos for taking into consideration the risks after already investing in a pair. Most people, I think would just shrug it off, and continue to breed, hurting the parrotlet species.

I would say you could contact Sandee @ Parrotlet Ranch...She could probably really help you with your decisions and lead you in the direct path. I know she's good with answering emails and is so informative. She's a great parrotlet breeder and has one of the highest breeding standards I've seen. To my knowledge she is quick to respond to emails also....

Her site link: http://www.parrotletranch.com/
 
#32 ·
A yellow bird can't be "split to yellow". It's visually yellow and could be split to another color depending on what it's parents are. Split means a color gene they carry that you can't "see". The best paring for both your birds is a green split to yellow mate. You would get both green and yellow babies.

Also there a 2 different "yellow" p'lets. (Not counting lutino) One is the American Yellow the other the European Yellow. The AY will have yellow flight feathers and the EY has a gray/dirty looking wash to the flights. My Dinky is a EY. You really should breed them to a green split to the same yellow that they are.

Kim
 
#33 ·
Kim is right about when we all say we have a green split to yell or a green dubble split. So what about if we wanted to breed an yellow that came from a green parents that had the yellow split couldn't we breed to a blue for example? and that's saying that both of yellow and blue came from two different parets but both parents where green.
 
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