Grit - Good or Bad for Parrotlet Health?

[enborgle]

We had a really good discussion going about this issue on another thread, so at the request of some forum members we have given it it's own. My comments below all the way down to and including Post #6 have been moved from that thread into this one, and everything that comes after will be new discussion.



I would definitely add the cuttlefish but be careful about adding "grit" - depending on the manufacturer, it may be made of crushed organic material like shell (this is okay) but some manufacturers also provide a gravel-type substance under the title of grit - this is very bad for parrots as it can become impacted. Most sources say that if a parrotlet has access to a cuttle bone, there is no need for supplementary grit.

[Flugmeister]

I would definitely add the cuttlefish but be careful about adding "grit" - depending on the manufacturer, it may be made of crushed organic material like shell (this is okay) but some manufacturers also provide a gravel-type substance under the title of grit - this is very bad for parrots as it can become impacted. Most sources say that if a parrotlet has access to a cuttle bone, there is no need for supplementary grit.

Let me second this. Parrots do not have gizzards and as such do not need grit. A cuttlebone and/or lava rock is, however, in my opinion, an essential cage element for a healthy beak and talons. These items are also diversions for the bird, just like toys. In the wild they use rocks and tree bark for this element of their grooming.

[antocastanheira]

Let me second this. Parrots do not have gizzards and as such do not need grit.
Sorry to disagree with you, but parrots have gizzards. You can see it in this image of the digest system of parrots: http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/imgs/digest.gif. For my opinion all birds need grit (or sand) to help them to digest the seeds. Grit is a mixture of oyster shells, grinding stones, seashells, redstone and charcoal: an essential food supplement for every bird. It is not only a rich source of minerals and trace elements. The grinding stones are absolutely crucial for a proper digestion.

[enborgle]

Sorry to disagree with you, but parrots have gizzards. You can see it in this image of the digest system of parrots: http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/imgs/digest.gif. For my opinion all birds need grit (or sand) to help them to digest the seeds. Grit is a mixture of oyster shells, grinding stones, seashells, redstone and charcoal: an essential food supplement for every bird. It is not only a rich source of minerals and trace elements. The grinding stones are absolutely crucial for a proper digestion.

I disagree, and frankly I think this is dangerous advice that could lead anyone following it to cause their birds to suffer from impactions and related health problems. Since you have referenced a birdsnways.com page, perhaps you will recognize this one: http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww58eii.htm

The most pertinent part of the article:

Grit is not required in normal, healthy, psittacine (parrots) or passerine (canaries, finches, starlings, mynahs) birds. Since these birds remove the fibrous hulls from the seeds in the act of eating them, the digestive enzymes have no barriers to prevent them from acting upon the seed. In fact some species of parrots have ridges on the inside portion of their upper beak which are believed to aid in the shelling of seeds. The seed is held in place by the ridges, while the lower beak is used to crack and remove the hull. Birds on a formulated (pelleted) diet also should not require grit.

The article also discusses the differences between soluble and insoluble grit that I referenced earlier.

[jodeg]

My goodness! I agree with Enborgle! I haven't used grit with ANY of my birds for AT LEAST 35 years! I think it's even dangerous for them and not recommended. I didn't know anyone still used it these days!

[Flugmeister]

Sorry to disagree with you, but parrots have gizzards. You can see it in this image of the digest system of parrots: http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/imgs/digest.gif. For my opinion all birds need grit (or sand) to help them to digest the seeds. Grit is a mixture of oyster shells, grinding stones, seashells, redstone and charcoal: an essential food supplement for every bird. It is not only a rich source of minerals and trace elements. The grinding stones are absolutely crucial for a proper digestion.

There is a significant amount of dispute on this topic and it centers around the fact that parrots hull their seeds. The gizzard has less importance because of this, but they still use grit and it is felt that rather than being essential, it is more of a digestion assist rather than a necessity. Apparently, some birds can starve to death without grit in their diets, but this is certainly not the case for parrots, although there is evidence that they ingest sand from river banks and other locations within their native habitats.

This now leads us to domesticated parrots, specifically parrotlets. I would venture that they could spend their lives without grit and live healthy and normal spans given that their diet was such that from the volume and consistency they would not need the assist that grit in the gizzard would provide.

That said, we now have to ask whether or not providing grit to the parrotlet might not enhance their digestive process, make it easier and more efficient and thus increase their comfort and well-being.

This article (http://www.holisticbird.org/pages/dgrit.htm) was the best I have read on the topic, but it is inconclusive. I frankly welcome more discussion on this, we may want to move it from this thread (molting/plucking problem) to it's own.

[ParrotletsRock]

I do have a tiny dish of digestible oyster shell in my cages for both my p'let and my budgies... not as grit but as a calcium source... I do not give stone or indigestible grit.

[Callie]

I do have a tiny dish of digestible oyster shell in my cages for both my p'let and my budgies... not as grit but as a calcium source... I do not give stone or indigestible grit.
There are different kinds of "grit," water soluble and non-water soluble (sand/gravel). Oyster shell is water soluble and is an good source for calcium. Typically here in the United States, when the word grit is mentioned, we visualize the kind of grit that is small pieces of sand/gravel.

[jodeg]

Thanks, Enborgle -- this is a great discussion! Callie's right, the last time I saw "grit" it looked like little pieces of gravel.

[Tina&Jeremy]

I think an additional source of wisdom for this is your own avian vet with experience with parrotlets (if you are lucky enough to have one!!) We decided, with our vet's valuable input, that cuttlebones or any kind of grit was not for our bird. We based this on her diet and toys/perches available in her cage for beak/talon health.

[Bodie]

I think an additional source of wisdom for this is your own avian vet with experience with parrotlets (if you are lucky enough to have one!!) We decided, with our vet's valuable input, that cuttlebones or any kind of grit was not for our bird. We based this on her diet and toys/perches available in her cage for beak/talon health.

I agree with this comment. I do have an avian vet with experiance in parrotlets. I do not put Lava rock, cuttlebone nor grit in Bodie diet or cage. He has no problems with his beak nor talons.

[antocastanheira]

There are 2 diferent veterinarian "schools": 1 American, that disagree grit, because most of the diet is based on only pellets, and a diferent one that is not a pellet base diet.
If the diet is base in pellets there is no need of grit, because the minerals are in the pellets and the absorsation of food turn to be easier.
If the diet is base in seeds, vegetables, fruits, pellets, then is important the use of grit.

[scooby]

WOW what a discussion i have given any of my birds grit

[enborgle]

There are 2 diferent veterinarian "schools": 1 American, that disagree grit, because most of the diet is based on only pellets, and a diferent one that is not a pellet base diet. [ ... ] If the diet is base in seeds, vegetables, fruits, pellets, then is important the use of grit.

Again, I have to disagree and I think this is a cultural assumption on your part - most vets here who are experienced with Parrotlets (or any kind of parrot, really) do NOT advise a solely pellet-based diet, especially for the parrotlet mutations, and it would be very uncommon to see any parrot in this part of the world being fed nothing but pellets - like you, most of us here also base our diets around a healthy mix of seeds, vegetables, sprouts, fruit and pellets, and still the use of grit is strongly not recommended.

[jodeg]

Again, I totally agree with Enborgle! I doubt that anyone on this forum gives their birds ONLY pellets, only anything for that matter. Mine get veggies, fruit, Goldenfeast Petite Hookbill Blend (a mixture of a whole bunch of stuff), sprouts, and on and on AND pellets. NO grit at all.

[antocastanheira]

I´m really happy that your doing this:). Ok, returning to the important... I have more than 20 couples of parrotlets and i never have any problem with the use of Grit, and they really love it. The only time that they don´t have grit is when there are chicks. I remove the grit because i have afraid that some pieces of "rock" get into the digest system of the young ones.

[Jinx n Noodle]

Very interesting discussion. I'll have to look into grit at the petstores again. The last time I looked (many many years ago), the only grit I saw was gravel based with other stuff like shell... I'll have to see if it's changed any.

[ParrotletsRock]

I looked and my box does not say grit... it is oyster shells.... crushed.. it is very fine and pure oyster shell.

[skthurley]

I had a cuttlebone in my parrotlet's cage and my conure's cage but found my conure wasn't using it so I took it away. She just kept knocking it down and pooping on it. I havent put one in my Senegal's cage. Not sure why I havent..... lol!

I don't believe that grit in the sense of chunks of gravel and rock is healthy for parrots.

Crushed oyster shells like a sand powder substance however might be a good source of calcium. This is the only form of 'grit' that I might offer.

Though I do not offer it.

[Flugmeister]

I agree with this comment. I do have an avian vet with experiance in parrotlets. I do not put Lava rock, cuttlebone nor grit in Bodie diet or cage.

I just think this is nonsense. How many parrotlets does this vet own? How many has he/she kept to full life-span? If the answer is none, then his/her knowledge is from books or other publications--just like the rest of us. There is nothing in those materials that is secretly coded so that only a vet can interpret it.

The grit discussion must start with soluble, meaning digestible, and insoluble. The former would be the cuttlebone and oyster shells, the latter sand or stone. The fact is that there have been cases of parrots with sand impacted gizzards and this has led some to believe that sand is bad for parrots. On the other hand, parrots have been observed eating sand in the wild.

Frankly, I am going to side with antocastanheira as his data appears to be the most valid. I have both cuttlebone and a lava stone in my Copi's cage and he uses them both. He may be getting grit from the lava stone, but he also has a mal-formed beak and thus needs a good deal of grinding to keep it down.

There appears to be a disconnect between American avian science; i.e., avian vets and biologists, where they concluded at some point that "grit is bad, ban all grit!" for parrots. I find this ridiculous and want to see the science behind it, not just a few anecdotal instances.

[enborgle]

I have never heard of parrots ingesting sand in the wild - certainly not on purpose, perhaps by accident in the course of foraging. They do visit clay licks for the mineral benefits, and there are now clay supplements that can be purchased accordingly - I know Hagen recently came out with one called Clay-Kal that is generating some good buzz in the avian community.

Flug, you are free to "side" with whomever you please - the fact is that antocastanheira has not provided you with any data, convincing or otherwise - just his own practices and the justifications behind them, no different than the rest of us.

[Flugmeister]

I have never heard of parrots ingesting sand in the wild - certainly not on purpose, perhaps by accident in the course of foraging. They do visit clay licks for the mineral benefits, and there are now clay supplements that can be purchased accordingly - I know Hagen recently came out with one called Clay-Kal that is generating some good buzz in the avian community.

Flug, you are free to "side" with whomever you please - the fact is that antocastanheira has not provided you with any data, convincing or otherwise - just his own practices and the justifications behind them, no different than the rest of us.

I think we are going to have to agree that there isn't any hard data. If there is, I would certainly love to see it. I will always argue that when in doubt, all things in moderation and "know your bird". The latter means to know your bird well enough to be able to detect (early) when something is wrong.

As for taking sides, I regret that it came off that way. I favor observational data over anecdotal, and observational data demands volume and time. Since a formal study to put this issue to rest might result in the deaths of valuable birds, it's unlikely that we will see such a thing, and probably best we don't.

[edward]

I was just mulling this over the other day. I just got a new Blue Pacific parrotlet, I did not buy grit, the kind the pet store has is that gravel and grit stuff. I have a cuttle bone and a mineral block for him. I had a lovebird for twelve years who died one night, 12 years is a good life for a lovebird and she was never lethargic or sick at any time. My Timneh African Grey was 17 years old when he escaped despite having his wings trimmed the day before, fully trimmed all main flights! he never had grit either. My lovebird just ignored for months, I actually got a mixture of oyster shell and some red sandy looking stuff that was " guaranteed to be soluble " it did not matter so I turned her grit bowl into a treat bowl.

My grey Mr. Tim never got any as the breeder told me they never seen the need for it and after looking at their immaculate aviary, the birds roamed freely in spaces about ten feet high and ten feet wide during the day and were caged in the evening, I decided they knew their stuff. Mr. Tim never had a problem either, I always trimmed his nails and clipped his wings myself until I had a bad experience, I trimmed a nail, it was black and tough to judge where the vein was, till it started to bleed and even with a steptic powder I kept it would not stop, well it stopped and then he would scratch himself or climb around and it would open again, this went on for an hour and then it finally quit, I called every vet I could find and emergency number for and not one dealt with parrots. After that I would take him in for nails and get the wings done when needed, then he was setting atop his cage the window was open on the other side of the room on a very windy day and our picture frame fell over and bang he was startled and flew right o the window losing altitude and just scraped off the sill and when he hit the wind he went up over a stand of trees a half mile away and disappeared into a forest, never to be seen again.

Personally I feel they get all the grit they need from a cuttlebone. A side note, Mr. Tim was a medium size parrot, the smaller of the two species of grey's the regular African grey is about four inches taller and stockier with a brighter red tail. Mr. Tim would devour a cuttlebone within seconds of getting one, literally start at the top and just consume most of it, then I would wait a few weeks and get him another one, I had a shop I would go to that stocked the large cuttlebones, not like the little boxed ones, these were usually between 14 to 18 inches long. I also kept the large mineral block always present, he would ignore it for over month most times then one day he would just eat it like the cuttlebones.

ed

[antocastanheira]

Hello again,

First of all, i just tried to help and think that my own practices (with good results) could help. But, if you want some data, will give you. In "The Parrotlet Handbook", by Matthew M. Vriends, Ph.D., the author talk about Grit, going to reproduce the whole article:
"Minerals
Minerals are inorganic or nonliving materials that the birds need for growth and maintenance of the body. The most important minerals are salts containing calcium, phosphorus, sodium, manganese, coper, potassium, iron, and iodine. Each of these has its on function or functions. The term trace elements is often used to describe those minerals of which the birds need smaller quantities.
Grit and Gravel: In addition to the dietary constituents mentioned previously, grit and gravel are important. Grit and cuttlefish bone can help supply the bird´s calcium requirements to build bone, eggshells, and so on. This is very important in the breeding season. Small gravel has the function of grinding food in the stomach, making it easier to digest. The gravel is not digested, but passes through the body once it has worn too smooth to continue its job.
Many avian veterinarians and aviculturists tend to disagree on the necessity of a daily supply of grit. This does not mean, however, that seed-eating birds such as parrotlets and other dwarf parrots, both in the wild and in captivity, are not dependent upon small gravel and grit that they pick up from the soil, so that their alimentary systems work efficiently in the digestion of seeds and other food. Seed-eating birds have a crop in which the seed is softened before it goes into the gizzard or muscular stomach - the gizzard is an enlargement of the alimentary canal with dense, muscular walls. Without gravel or grit - often ground-up white oyster shell, as gray or dark shell are believed to contain too much lead - a great deal of the seed remains unground and whole seeds are passed out in the droppings.
Experiments have shown that birds that have no access to grit take greater quantities of food than those that have a supply of grit. Also, the health of the birds declines. The undigested seeds cause block-ages in the intestines and then the only discharge is a whitish, watery substance.
In various commercial brands of grit, redstone, chalk, gravel, and calcareous seaweed or kelp, as well as a little charcoal, are added. In the wild, various birds take little bits of charcoal before going to nest, but the calcium of a daily supply of charcoal is questionable as it is suspected of absorbing vitamins A, B2, an K from the intestinal tract. If this is correct, it can mean that charcoal can cause vitamin-deficiency disease. Grit also frequently contains crushed quartz, which is a very hard insoluble substance, with sharp edges that grind seed in the gizzard.
Never use grit as a sole source of certain essential minerals that may be contained in it, such as calcium, iron, magnesium, and iodine. In other words, offer a variety of food to ensure that sufficient quantities of minerals are available. An overdose of mineralized grit can cause kidney damage. Most aviculturists supply a separate dish with grit once every other day for approximately one hour, free choice.
Grit ia available in various grades: fine or small finches, canaries, budgerigars, parrotlets, and other dwarf parrots; medium-sized to coarse for large parrots and ornamental fowl."

[jodeg]

Everyone has to do what they think is best for their birds, which is what I'm sure you do. I haven't given my birds grit for over 30 years, and they seem fine, healthy and happy, so this works for me.

[enborgle]

I hate to be argumentative, but that is not data, it is simply an article, just like the others that have been posted and recommend the opposite practice.

After reading that excerpt I felt compelled to go and see what my own Parrotlet Handbook, the one written by Sandee Molenda, has to say about the subject (emphasis hers):

Grit and Oyster Shell

Never feed grit or oyster shell to a parrotlet. Parrotlets hull their seed with their beak rather than swallow it whole. Therefore, grit is not needed to grind up the food. It is not only unnecessary but has been known to cause impaction both in the crop and intestines and can cause death. If the parrotlet is on a well-balanced diet and has access to mineral block, cuttlebone and vitamins, it will have no need for grit.

It seems to me that what we have is a growing body of evidence that feeding grit can be harmful, but no real evidence to show how helpful it is, if at all. Certainly if a parrotlet were passing whole, undigested seeds as described above this would warrant a visit to an avian vet, but it is certainly not as common as you would expect among those birds who do not consume grit if the lack thereof was the cause. There was a time when parrot owners did feed grit, but it has fallen out of favour over the past 20 to 30 years because of the complications it caused and the avicultural advancements that have been made during that time. I am simply not willing to take the risks associated with this outdated practice and although everyone will do as they please to care for their birds as they see fit, I won't condone it to others.

[Flugmeister]

<snip>

ed

50 years old, stuck between juvenile and senile.

My wife of 35 years says that I may be 57, but I act like a 12 YO and always have. Frankly, youth is wasted on the young.

[Flugmeister]

I hate to be argumentative, but that is not data, it is simply an article, just like the others that have been posted and recommend the opposite practice.

After reading that excerpt I felt compelled to go and see what my own Parrotlet Handbook, the one written by Sandee Molenda, has to say about the subject (emphasis hers):
<snip>
It seems to me that what we have is a growing body of evidence that feeding grit can be harmful, but no real evidence to show how helpful it is, if at all. Certainly if a parrotlet were passing whole, undigested seeds as described above this would warrant a visit to an avian vet, but it is certainly not as common as you would expect among those birds who do not consume grit if the lack thereof was the cause. There was a time when parrot owners did feed grit, but it has fallen out of favour over the past 20 to 30 years because of the complications it caused and the avicultural advancements that have been made during that time. I am simply not willing to take the risks associated with this outdated practice and although everyone will do as they please to care for their birds as they see fit, I won't condone it to others.

Frankly, I don't see how Sandee Molenda's opinion is any different from what you decried as "that is not data, it is simply an article", but no matter. I could not agree more with her prescription of a mineral block, cuttlebone and vitamins--I would only add to that a healthy diet. The latter I define as Volkman Avian Science Super Parrotlet seed mix along with daily fresh fruits, vegetables and plants. I don't see any reason to "feed grit" and know for a fact that it is not essential to the parrotlets health given the availability of cuttlebone and mineral block. My observations indicate that making grit "available" will not harm the bird and will most likely be ignored or taken in insignificant quantities providing the bird is healthy.

[enborgle]

Flug, you're correct that Sandee Molenda's opinion is no different and does not contain any hard data. I was just highlighting the discrepancy between one "Parrotlet Handbook" and the other. I think you are right on the money with your statements about the importance of a healthy, balanced diet in combination with a cuttlebone and mineral block. My line of thinking is, if they don't need grit and in fact can thrive without it, I have no reason to use it and risk causing more harm than good.

I feel like we are starting to beat the proverbial dead horse here.

[ParrotletsRock]

Poor horse... he didn't do anything... why beat him??...lol

[Flugmeister]

I feel like we are starting to beat the proverbial dead horse here.

Agreed.

Not to keep beating the horse, but the reality is that parrotlets have extremely high metabolism (reminds me of my teens when i would inhale vast amounts of food and never gain weight--sigh) and as such one can quickly observe the results of diet changes and other factors. I have concluded that grit is not essential, but it is not harmful either. If offered to the parrotlet and the bird gorges, then something else is wrong.

I practice diet control with my bird. I have found it to be healthy for him to be hungry and that is borne up by years of research. Too many overfeed their birds and then cannot understand why they have behavioral problems or dead birds long before normal lifespan has run out. This also holds for humans, witness "The Biggest Loser" and other contemporary tableaux.