Egg mystery

[giogump]

Hi all (this is our first time posting!),:)

My husband and I are the owners of two parrotlets we got at a bird fair in Northern Italy. The hen, Chloe Jr. is blue and the male, Ennio, is green, but a carrier of the blue genes (either his mother or father was blue). Obviously I am not very technical in my descriptions here.

Anyway, we got them in hopes that we would soon find ourselves with some little baby parrotlets in the near future, and were excited when we saw that Chloe Jr. had started staying in her nest all day. Then came the empty egg thrown out of the nest I found at the bottom of the cage. We started checking the nest about once a week or every two weeks and in the end found there was another egg thrown out of the nest itself, but still in the nest box (it is divided), and then four eggs in the actual nest that Chloe Jr. has been very dedicated to. The breeder we got Chloe Jr. from told us that she had already expertly raised several clutches, so her skills as a mother have been proven. The only thing is that about a month has passed and no babies have hatched yet. We think that the male might be impotent and sadly that perhaps they also are empty. However, we then question this because Chloe Jr. seems to know what she is doing and did throw two eggs out of the nest that appeared empty. Would a proven breeder sit on empty eggs? If they are empty, should we take them out? We were also thinking of moving them to a different (easier to clean!) cage...should we do that when we remove the eggs to just make it a clean break for her? In hopes that the eggs might still have a chance, what is the longest it has taken for parrotlet eggs to hatch? We keep hoping to find a little guy in the nest, but nothing. We think the eggs look full too, but we haven't wanted to touch them. I was thinking I might try taking one, wearing rubber gloves, and hold a flashlight up to it to check...Has anyone had experience with an entire clutch not hatching? Or babies being born late? Again, the problem isn't the female...if it is the male, would it be too stressful for both of them to be repaired? Thanks for your help! We anxiously await your responses!!!!

[memmey]

Giogump..hang on the ones on this site with experience have not read your post yet. They will and they can help you. Nice to have you join us. What cute little p'lets. Keep checking the others will probably see your post soon. Welcome.

[AndreaFahy]

Proven breeders are often known to sit on an infertile clutch.

The incubation period for parrotlet eggs is 21 days.

It is not necessary to use a glove to handle the egg, but you must be careful as to what you candle the egg with. Most normal flashlights let off a small amount of heat, even a few seconds concentrated on an egg have been thought to be damaging to the chick/egg.

I recommed a "no heat LED pen light" Our home stores have them here.

How long have you had the pair? Can you tell us about the keeping methods of the pair? (housing, diet, nest, lighting, temp and humidity, etc)

[giogump]

Hi AndreaFahy,

We have had them since last September. I had a female parrotlet about ten years ago (Chloe Sr.) when I was in high school/college that I had to give away when I moved over here, and we saw these guys at a bird fair near where we lived and I couldn't resist. They are in a pretty large cage...maybe about 60 cm by 40 cm by 90 cm, although we are thinking of moving them to a larger one that is easier to clean once we figure out what is going on with these eggs (obviously we wouldn't move them with a possible clutch). We feed them a seed mix and fresh food everyday...kiwis, strawberries, carrots, zucchini, cucumbers...pretty much whatever fruits and veggies we are eating that are okay for them. We have tried giving them beans and rice mixtures, but they don't eat them. They always have a cuttlebone and mineral block available, which they chew on a lot. Lighting is natural (they are near a window) so the sun comes up around 5:30am or so and sets around 9:30pm at the moment. Temperature and humidity are also natural...they are inside so at night it doesn't get too cold, but we live in Rome, Italy, so the weather and humidity is pretty constant and nice. Does that help at all? I had read that if humidity is too low, the baby chicks can dry up in the egg. But we haven't used any air conditioning or anything that would lead to humidity reduction...and I don't think the air here is so dry that that could have happened. We feel bad for Chloe Jr. because she is trying so hard and has been a good mother for her eggs! If they do turn out to be empty/duds, what is the nicest way to remove them without her getting upset? I was thinking maybe we could remove the nest and put them in the new cage to completely change the scenery...or is that even more stressful? Help! (and thanks!)

[Pado]

Hi Giogump - welcome to the site - sorry I don't have much advice with breeding issues but I'm sure you'll fine from others what you are looking for.

From your post I'm gathering that the Female is the proven breeder, right?

Since you think the male is impotent I'm assuming he was not Chloe's original mate and has never raised a clutch with her?

If so, is it possible that this male is inexperienced or too young and maybe doesn't have the hang of properly breeding Chloe Jr yet ?

Have you seen this pair mate - just to be sure they are a true pair. Since Chloe has had another mate she may not be actually breeding with this male and just laying infertile eggs.

[giogump]

Hi Pado,

Chloe Jr. is a proven breeder. Ennio we know nothing about, but from his behavior, we think he is a little bit stupid. It seemed like, before she laid the eggs, that she was trying to show him what to do (ie. feeding her, etc.), but he rarely did so (from what we observed...). Even in terms of 'head scratching', Chloe Jr. was always scratching his head and he rarely did it in return, even when it was clear she wanted her head scratched! It is very possible that he is inexperienced (he doesn't seem the most skilled in the mating department...always flailing one of his legs around looking for a foothold), however he is not too young. He is at least 2-3 years old (I would have to check his band). We have seen them 'mating' many, many times...before Chloe Jr. started staying in the nest and also during...she would fly out when she was laying the eggs, fly around to exercise (that's what I think at least!), they would mate, and she would then fly back in...I assumed that she knew she was ready for egglaying and needed them to be 'fertilized' (from what I read, the eggs get fertilized like the day before?). I may be wrong about that, but I have drawn a lot of my own conclusions I guess based on what I've observed and read. They may be completely wrong though.

[Pado]

Giogump - I have no breeding experience with Parrotlets only what I've read.

But to me it sounds like Ennio is just inexperienced. Chloe Jr may be his first "girlfriend" and he just needs to get the technique down to properly breed her. :p

I'd say just give it some more time - the more they practice the better the chances of a successful breeding.

Its very positive that they are grooming and that there is some feeding going on and you've seen them mate - they are a pair. He probably just needs more practice and an experienced Hen will get him there.

[Pado]

By the way - their picture is just adorable :)

[giogump]

thanks,
so we are going to take the eggs away today and put the nest away for a month to let Chloe recover from the stress of the clutch. is a month enought time?

[giogump]

okay, since today is around the 37th day that Chloe Jr. has been incubating these poor eggs, we just took down the nest to save her some stress although we are sad to give up all hope (but I guess after 37 days, there was no hope to be had!). Last weekend there were four, but today there are only three, so she must have started to realize that things weren't going right...we opened them all and one was filled with a strange light colored liquid (yuck), but two had little baby parrotlets in them!!!!!!!!!! So we are sad that for some reason they didn't make it, but happy that at least Ennio can adequately 'do the dance' since we severely doubted his mating skills....poor little guys. I am now wondering back to my comment about them drying up if maybe the humidity here wasn't enough for them to survive. It has been a very temperate summer over here and we are into the second day of the third heat wave due to 'African winds', but still, I don't think it has gotten over 90 degrees even during the heat wave and beforehand it was in the 80s....the humidity right now is 35% (I just checked on my digital thermometer...). That does seem low...what should it be, ideally? In September the humidity will rise....is a month enough time to let Chloe Jr rest before trying again? I don't want her to keep stressing over eggs that keep drying up though! Poor little guys...they even had their beaks and everything formed...it looked like just another two days or so if they had hung in there they might have made it....:( :(

Also, as an aside, Chloe Jr. I noticed a few days back when she came out of the nest to poop had some major projectile diarrhea going...could the eggs have died as a result of an infection that she might have recently somehow picked up? Thanks for your help.

[Pado]

giogump - I'm so sorry - That is very sad :( - I wonder what happened. Hopefully some of the people who have bred will chime in and give you a clue.

But like you said on the bright side - Ennio obviously knows what he's doing after all :)

[giogump]

Hi again all,

Well, it has been about two months since our last post and we are in the same situation again. :( Chloe Jr. is sitting on 4 eggs and the last one we believe was laid on Sept. 11, however if the incubation period is 21 days, time is up again. Does anyone have any idea what could be going wrong? We are hesitant to pull these eggs as well since last time when we opened them up, there were two little guys inside, although obviously not going to hatch since it had been nearly 40 days last time I think (I would have to reread our last posts...). Has anyone had experience with fertile eggs simply not hatching? I keep reading everyone's success stories with babies and we are jealous!!!! Again, when we opened the last eggs, the baby parrotlets were perfectly formed, so it seems to be a problem of actually getting out of the egg...The weather hasn't been too hot so I can't say that that might be a possible factor. We really wanted to have some little babies, but we don't want to keep going through all this anticipation just to be let down and have Chloe Jr. just keep stressing out for nothing. :( :( :( :( Advice?:confused:

[giogump]

Okay, so now I have been doing some research online to try to see what diseases might result in hatchlings dying in their eggs and I came across something called the Polyoma virus that could result in it. We are wondering if because we have their cage inside in a room where we often are after we come home from work that maybe we somehow brought the virus home from the city and spread it to them, since on the site below it says it can be transmitted through human respiration or from dust or particles on your shoes, etc. It also says that the birds appear healthy (which Chloe Jr. and Ennio do), but that feather formation can be affected. Ennio has been pulling out his chest feathers a little bit, but we thought it was from the stress of Chloe Jr. incubating the eggs. Does anyone have any experience with this? More information on symptoms and possible (if they exist) remedies would be much appreciated. I have attached the website I just read below.

http://www.petcaretips.net/avian-polyoma-virus.html

[Koki]

I would give them a third try. Many sites state that inexperienced birds generally get it right by the third time. But then some mathces just never work. Your male may just not like your female.

Also, do your birds have at least one good rock solid perch that does not shake or give when they perch on it?

I've read on several sites that parrotlets may do the dance, but not quite line up on a shaky perch, due to their size and the sideways mating particular to their species.

-Ronnie

[Pado]

I'm not a breeder and have never bred Parrotlets: But from articles I've read they must be set up in optimal conditions for a successful hatch.

Since you've seen developing embryos in the eggs it sounds like the birds Mating practices are okay.

Are you using the recommended sized box for breeding Parrotlets? You mentioned in the past that eggs were being pushed out of the box and/or into a separate compartment? - I ask because I don't believe boxes with compartments are used for Parrotlets and also if they were able to push an egg out of the box you may have too much nesting material in the box (they should not be able to get the egg that high to push it out the hole). They require the proper box with the proper material ( I don't know what that is but I know they need the conditions of the box to meet their requirements).

Also I know the birds, especially the female need to be in top breeding condition before laying - or the eggs could develop with too thin of a shell or too thick of a shell or worse, the female could become egg bound. She needs to have been fed the proper diet and calcium etc leading up the the breeding and also the humidity in the room needs to be optimal for proper egg development. This is why wild birds breed at certain times of the year - they breed when the conditions are optimal and the proper food is abundant for a successful outcome.

If I were you I'd purchase a breeding Parrotlet book and follow it to the tee:

Also you may want to consider giving the female a break before restarting - letting her lay more that 2 - 3 times a year could wear out her body and she could become egg bound. I'd learn all I could to be sure I had the optimal conditions and have the birds in proper form before trying to breed them again.

There may be no need to seperate them to discourage laying - remove their box and make sure they are getting the proper sleep in a darkened room (at least 12 hrs). There are breeding conditions and non breeding conditions - a breeding book should explain this better than I am.

Also Parrotlets do not like to be disturbed too often - if they are and the eggs hatch they often will abandon the nest or attack their chicks. The male is notorious for attacking his male offspring - this is something you need to watch for also. You should to be prepared and experienced to take over the feeding of the chicks should this happen.

[giogump]

Okay, just an update for those interested. We took Ennio and Chloe to an avian vet here in Rome and although my husband actually talked to the vet, from the medicine we have been giving them, the must have had Avian Gastric Yeast (AKA megabacteria)...I think that is the right name. Anyway, we have been giving them medicine twice a day now for about two weeks and it is amazing how their activity level picked up after just a day or two. Ennio especially had the symptoms of this AGY (diarrhea, "gaping" when eating, etc.). Apparently it is very common in parakeets and canaries and also somewhat in parrotlets, but the vet said that they should make a full recovery. I just wanted to relay the info and update everyone. We also found out that the seed mix we were using wasn't good for them (it had sunflower seeds which we think they were just picking out and not eating anything else that would have been healthier), and because they didn't have the proper nutrition, their immune systems weakened and they picked up this AGY. We are now giving them I think a parakeet seed mix (no sunflower seeds which are very fatty) in the morning and roudybush pellets, beans/legumes and veggies that I cooked up, and fresh fruit and veggies everyday (today they devoured a fico d'india...indian fig? anyway they are bright magenta purple and I now have pieces of this everywhere...actually, I wonder if they ate any of it, because from the amount of it all over the room, it seems like they just had fun flinging it everywhere!!! some must have gone in though...). They get a kiwi a day (which they love) and I am also trying to get them to eat broccoli, brussel sprouts, oranges, etc. Anyway, they appear to be doing much better and I just wanted to post this in case anyone else notices diahrrea and lethargic behavior and wonders if it is normal...we were tipped off by the eggs not hatching, but it seems to be a common infection. Okay, that's all!

[giogump]

PS. to Pado, when Chloe started pushing out the unfertile eggs, we were amazed, because she had to somehow lift them up about two inches to the hole in the piece of wood dividing the nest box. The box shouldn't be an issue. We made it ourselves after consulting the breeder we got them from and Internet resources. If they are still doing well, maybe we will put it up again in the spring...we'll see! Thanks for your help though!

[SharenV]

I've read that the proper humidity level for breeding parrotlets is between 60 and 70%. That does seem high, and maybe that's why some of the better incubators/brooders recommended for parrotlets have a humidity setting on them. I have tried to reach this level of humidity with a cool mist humidifer running on high in my small bird room and can't get the humditiy level above 51%. Of course, it is in the teens right now in eastern PA, so that doesn't help.

[cute_lil_fiend]

Congrats on finding out what was wrong. Perhaps the next time you'll get lucky and be proud grandparents LOL.