So, Sparky has decided to clip HIS OWN wings!! [Archive]

ArtS

06-09-2007, 09:27 PM

Marjet,

Thanks for the sympathy. It seems that he's surprised every time he discovers that he can't fly :rolleyes: .

Ardrea,

They are eight (8) years old which is almost forever :D. MeMe is usually game for mating but Sparky doesn't seem to know what to do and I'm not going to show him ;) (I recall them going at it a few years ago but that's about it). He is very posessive of MeMe, which annoys her. He's been to a very experienced avian vet and is very healthy besides the plucking. The himidity is fine and the cage is in a window with lots of light with extra full spectrum lighting.

Also, they tuck themselves in at dusk each night so they get plenty of sleep.

Jan,

They both have plenty of things to shred. In fact they love these woven palms called shedders.

Lily,

This is the first time he's plucked a wing but he's been plucking for years - he leaves and preens his down but plucks his color feathers on his back and legs. However, this spring he pulled out his tail and now he's plucked a wing (except for one or two flight feathers; which is not enough to fly).

He generally pulls out his feathers but I wasn't sure whether he pulled or chewed the flight feathers, but I suspect he pulled, rather than chewed, them as well.

Regards to all,

Art S.

lily

06-09-2007, 11:16 PM

Interesting.... what does he eat?

ArtS

06-10-2007, 12:44 AM

Lily,

We feed a base of Harrisons pellets and the rest ranges but includes homegrown sprouts, sweetpotato, brown rice, cooked quinoa, pasta salad and greens (both dried and fresh). Treats include Lafeber nutraberries and avicakes and millet.

Regards,

Art S.

musicjan

06-10-2007, 12:45 AM

Sounds like you've checked it all out, Art. Poor little guy. Maybe he'll get bored with the wing thing soon - let's hope!

ArtS

06-10-2007, 12:50 AM

Jan,

Although I feel bad for him and he may be a little confused and upset about his inability to fly, he's a fun, funny, happy little bird. We all have 'issues', Sparky's just happen to be physically apparent ;) .

Regards,

Art S.

marjet

06-10-2007, 07:28 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always understood -when the nutritional and playing conditions are met- that plucking could be compared with nailbiting or maybe even smoking => a bad habit that is hard to break.
And if Spark is behaving like this for so long already... it will not be easy to break him from this habit. Or am I being careless or pessimistic right now? (Don't mean to be...)

ArtS

06-10-2007, 10:02 AM

Marjet,

You are correct. Though it may have a cause; once established it is a habit that is tough to break even if the causes are corrected. This is why his plucking did not bother me. However, his plucking of large feathers (tail and wing) is a concern because it effects his quality of life.

I was thinking of gluing some feathers back on and calling him Icarus :D .

Regards,

Art S.

AndreaFahy

06-10-2007, 11:15 AM

This gets me thinking. Does anyone in your household smoke, if so where?

lily

06-10-2007, 02:33 PM

Andrea and I are thinking along the same lines, now-- allergy! Even trace amounts of volatile organic compounds can bother birds and sensitive people. I have researched this and learned that airborne chemicals can be absorbed through the skin, so I have a theory that they could irritate a bird's skin enough to make him pluck. Consider your body care products, anything sprayed into the air (even in another room), and hidden sources of molds as potential offenders. You could also try eliminating plastic water dishes-- cats with feline acne are often cured when their plastic dishes are replaced with glass.

I also see another potential offender. Soy. Some birds are allergic to soy, and it is an ingredient in the pellets you use. Totally Organic Pellets do not contain soy, nor does China Prairie's Avian Fresh. There is also a soy-free recipe called Mike's Mash, available on line, which you make yourself.

AndreaFahy

06-10-2007, 03:38 PM

Great track of thinking Lily. We don't use: non-stick appliances and cookware, air fresheners, plug ins, commercial household cleaners, no pefumes, basically we try to live as naturally and chemically free as possible. There are so many "Household Necessities" today that no one really would even consider as problematic.

There is even some consideration over nickel allergies. Some human have major skin allergies to nickel and many bird toys have nickel plated parts. Could there be a link? I have a friend with a nickel allergy and she refuses to use nickel plated anything with her birds. ( http://dermnetnz.org/dermatitis/nickel-allergy.html )

Evaluate everything in your household that is not very close to all natural, you may figure something out that is irritating him.

ArtS

06-10-2007, 09:22 PM

Interesting point! I live in a condo and my upsairs neighbor smokes! Occasionally I do smell it in my house. Let me think about a solution.

Thanks!

Art S.

PS. Today was a bad day, Sparky and MeMe were playing on top of their cage; something spooked them and they took off. No problem for MeMe but Sparky went over the side and hit something on the way down. He cut himself open and bled badly. We thought we lost him but the bleeding stopped and he's now resting. He doesn't have much energy but he is sitting on his perch so we are hopeful.

memmey

06-10-2007, 09:57 PM

Oh no!!!!!!Little Sparky poor soul. Please please everyone say a little prayer for Sparky. Take care of him Art...please let us know.

lily

06-10-2007, 10:40 PM

I'm glad you were there when Sparky hurt himself. You all are in my thoughts. Concerning the smoke-- I live in an apartment and had to buy an Austin air cleaner because of the "shared air" problem. The model is Health Pro Plus, I think. It filters out gasses. HEPA filters don't do the complete job. AllerAir (or something like that) also makes an air cleaner that filters out the gasses. The air situation here is bad, and there is no doubt in my mind that keeping the bird near the air filter saved her life at least once.

musicjan

06-11-2007, 12:15 AM

Oh Sparky, I feel sad about your fall!! What a sad day! Here's hoping you're getting your strength back!

ArtS

06-11-2007, 01:51 PM

That you all for your support, thoughts and prayers.

Though sparky is not looking too good, he made it through the night. Since the emaergency seems to have passed, we are scheduled to see the vet tomorrow.

Here are some links that my wife has had me reading; it turns out that Parrotlets are one of the parrot species more prone to plucking.

http://www.animalnetwork.com/vpn/detail.aspx?aid=11345&cid=3874&category=

http://www.premiercages.co.uk/parrot-behavior.html

We're also researching air cleaners:

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html

http://www.multiscope.com/hotspot/austinair/index.html

http://www.allergybegone.com/honeywell-50250-air-cleaner.html

Regards,

Art S.

ArtS

06-11-2007, 05:10 PM

For anyone interested, I just posted an interesting article on feather plucking in the Articles section.

http://www.talkparrotlets.com/showthread.php?t=603

Regards,

Art S.

Pado

06-11-2007, 05:50 PM

OMG Art – I don’t know what to say – I’m in shock – while reading it went from bad to worst – Poor Sparky, I’m sure he will be okay - he has to be – Lets hope he just needs to recoup. Let us know how his vet visit goes and in the meantime we’ll all be pulling for him. My best to you and your wife and MeMe of course.

ArtS

06-11-2007, 07:59 PM

Thanks for your support Pado,

My wife just called, he bled a little again. My wife thinks the source is a damaged feather. That said, he seems to be getting better and will see his vet, Dr. McKinley, who is a Board-Certified Avian Specialist, sometime tomorrow.

Once he's patched up, we may be putting him on the bird eqivilent of Prozac! :eek: :rolleyes: :D

Regards,

Art S.

Pado

06-12-2007, 09:40 PM

Art - how's Sparky doing today?

ArtS

06-12-2007, 10:01 PM

Hi Pado,

Sparky seems much better today. My wife took him to the vet (with MeMe along for company) and he cheeped all the way there.

Dr. McKinley found the gash (he had torn himself open in the fall). And superglued him back together so he's as good as new! Well not really because the doc didn't superglue his feathers back on. :rolleyes:

Anyway, Dr. McKinley generally gave a lot of practical and reasonable sounding advice. Though the first bit he suggested was something rather surprising: installing a nest box as a way of relieving stress. I'm not too thrilled with the idea of inbreeding but if it will make them happy, we will at least get them the box.

He thought it was worth taking the natural approach to see how it works before trying more agressive approaches like drugs.

He suggested putting a towel at the bottom of the cage, under the paper to soften the landing in case Sparky decides to jump.

Also, we had been keeping the divider in place recently 'for their own good' - he suggested we remove it. We did but MeMe still went to her own corner and kicked Sparky out :rolleyes: :D .

It seems as though the worst has passed but knowing them, I'm sure there are more surprises to come.

Regards,

Art S.

AndreaFahy

06-12-2007, 10:27 PM

Art,

Is the nest box to actually encourage the breeding, or just to give a nesting / cozy place? I have known people to offer nest boxes w/no bottom, but just a perch inside. This gives a nesty feeling, but no babies can be had in there!

AndreaFahy

06-12-2007, 10:28 PM

Curious - my avian vet doesn't like birds to be housed together period, something he and I will never see eye to eye on!

musicjan

06-12-2007, 10:46 PM

Art, let's hope Sparky will be on the mend now! I'm so glad he survived the fall. Poor Sparky - he's just having a hard time....MeMe kicked him out?!?!?! Fingers crossed for everyone now!

memmey

06-12-2007, 11:58 PM

Sparky the bionic man. Sparky kinda reminds me of Charlie Brown, the block head. MeMe aka Lucy. Spark can't seem to get ahead...I can't believe I'm saying his but...can't you get him is own girl. The cage is sure big enough what the heck 2 birds or three what's the difference. Well MeMe could marry too for that matter.

ArtS

06-13-2007, 11:32 AM

Andrea,

I wasn't there but based on what my wife told me the vet seems to think since we have the two birds, it is better for them to be together and that the risks are relatively small.

I'm not sure about the nesting box, but my impression is that he wants to give them the opportunity to at least have the ability to go through the motions.

Jan,

Sparky and MeMe have an intertesting relationship; Sparky wants to totally control MeMe and MeMe likes her space. We've had the plexiglass divider in their cage for about a month (we moved MeMe to the side away from where they normally sleep and set up a sleeping area for her) and I guess she has gotten used to it. It wasn't a harsh interaction, MeMe just politely asked Sparky to go back to his usual sleeping area and he did. Before bed they were hanging out together being very sweet.

This morning, even though there is no divider in place, they are still on their own sides of the cage.

Memmey,

I can't believe you, of all people, just suggested that!:eek: :D

Regards to all,

Art S.

marjet

06-13-2007, 12:09 PM

Art, what a relief to read that Sparky is quite allright again :D Wonderfull!
The way you write about your little rascalls is funny: I'd love to be a 'fly on the wall' just to watch...
The stuff about plucking you've been posting was very interesting by the way => I've been goin' through all of it, thanks.

Pado

06-13-2007, 01:07 PM

Great news Art – I’m glad to hear Sparky is on the mend and feeling better :cool:

The nest box is an interesting idea; you’ll have to let us know how that works out – I hadn’t planned on ever introducing a box but if the lack of one can cause problems, its something to look into – [maybe when I put mine together I’ll add one with a false floor as Andrea suggested with perches inside]. But be sure to let us know how Sparky and MeMe respond to the box.

I looked up Dr. McKinley and he’s quite revered on the Web so he knows his stuff.

It says he breeds Hyacinth Macaws, beautiful birds – I think their beaks are about the size of a parrotlet :p

memmey

06-13-2007, 02:52 PM

Welll the only reason I said that is cause jez Sparky is really having a time lately...maybe some wonderful green woman could save him... his sister will throw him under the bus. ..... Sparky the grey feather p'let now with a gash and super glue. He needs a green nurse.. Get the man some help!

Pado

06-13-2007, 05:49 PM

Frankenspark’ Glued back together, not too many can sat that :D

And remember: Two’s company – Three’s a crowd - Four, well that’s just WAY too much work! (for most anyway) :rolleyes:

Cindy215

06-13-2007, 08:28 PM

Hi Art,

We met on the other board when you were fact finding about having a third bird. I'm so sorry to hear about Sparky and hope he is better soon.

I understand the idea about the nest box but don't agree. Mainly because nest boxes really can cause mate aggression when one especially the hen isnt interested. And with Parrotlets I believe mate aggression is a big issue to watch for. And I don't think it's a last resort yet. Ditto the Prozac.

Here's what comes to mind, I'm just throwing ideas out there because I dont like a mystery. Ruling out all the possiblilties first....

1. Sleep/Lighting. Going to sleep at dusk is good for all birds. Just like the birds outside. Following a strict natural daylight schedule including dawn and dusk. With no artificial lighting after 3 pm. And in the winter that would be around 5 pm with dawn about 7 am, a 10 hour day in the middle of winter.

However, in summer that means a 14 hour day which IMO and IME is WAY too much light for Parrotlets. They get cranky, hyper agitated and overtired. So with Parrotlets I believe they require 12 hour nights in breeding season and following a strict natural daylight schedule the rest of the year. I use black out drapes and they go in at 6:45 and wake at 6:45-7:00. And do this on their OWN. I lower the miniblinds slowly over 30 minutes and they run to the roost. Piper actually taught me this when she came here and insisted on 12 hours sleep by retiring on her OWN into her hut early. Like 6 pm in the spring and hiding her head so no light came in.

Please try that asap. If they are getting simulated summer hours (long days of light) that could be causing year round breeding triggers. ANd nervousness. You cant really see stress in animals so much.

I would also immediately stop any full spectrum lighting. Especially with a pellet eating bird. They are getting supplemented man made D in the pellets. I'd go outside maybe but not with a immune compromised bird which I consider Sparky to be.

2. Environment, I would stop all air cleaners, humidifiers (unless they are new and CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. I'd use only distilled water for everything. I'd wash my hands super much before handling and spray with GSE water before. I'd do distilled water baths at least twice a week.

I wouldnt vacuum anywhere near the cage when they are in there and I'd wipe it down with GSE water once or twice a day.

3. Food. Sweet potatoes I'd stop immediately they've been implicated in pluckers. Ditto the PELLETS and any other man made additives. You could try Foundation Formula but I wouldnt.

I'm not exactly "anti-pellet" and have my budgie hen with lipomas on Harrison's hi po mash with sprouts, grains, greens, veggies and CoQ-10. She' s lived MUCH longer than I ever expected. So I believe they have their place. Especially for some people for whom cooking and prep etc is out of reach. But not with some variables, IMO. Diet is so hard anyway, such a crap shoot.

I'd stop all corn, soy, flour, rice, pasta, eggs. DEFINITELY no animal proteins of any kinds. I'd give unique grain (s) and a lentil for a complete protein. I wouldnt use any mixes like Jiffy. No salt or sugar either. This leaves dark leafy greens, veggies, a bit of fruit and the grain with lentil or adzuki or mung.

Soak or sprout seed/grain is the most living "natural" food but I find my Parrotlets get too hyper with alot since the protein is so super high. But a good ratio might help them especially him. I know of some birds that were reversed with lipomas on an all sprout diet under vet care. As a trial.

I'd also be lowering the protein and vitamin e (animal, vegetable like beans and nuts and the seed a bit). IME that makes them hyper and they are known breeding triggers. And too much protein is bad on the kidneys and liver anyway.

5. Supplements - I'd give nothing. For now. Especially man made but not even "natural" for now. IF anything I'd give some aloe vera gel in the bath but only for raw areas to soothe them.

6. Has Sparky had labs? I ask for two reasons. First, Calcium deficiencies are commonly the cause in birds like this or nervous behaviors.

Second, I spoke with Dr McK about doing labs on mine and he said he'd probably foregoe them since they are so small. But I'm wanting to get calcium and vitamin a checked and it has to be by someone really perfect at it and I'm freaking out even thinking about it. But it's a year since they came here and even though I supplement a bit I want to know if it's "right".

This is what I can think of for now. Pretty easy changes to see if you get any improvement. I hope you can give him some relief I know it's upsetting to see him like that. Not to mention the accident, omg.

Sorry this is so long but it's my style, as Pado can attest to LOL :rolleyes:

Cindy215

06-13-2007, 08:31 PM

OH and I'd remove the newspaper from the cage, put the grate back in and use unprinted newspaper underneath on the tray, like from Uhaul or even Home Depot or Lowes has it in the moving dept.

lily

06-14-2007, 02:10 AM

I understand the need for a certain number of hours of darkness, but why no full-spectrum light? What light source do you recommend for those who do not have access to the outdoors or open windows?

ArtS

06-14-2007, 02:10 AM

Marjet,

Thank you for your thoughts! I hope I misread your post, is Bibi plucking?!?

Memmey,

Now you are thinking like I was thinking when I first joined this board. You kind of convinced me not to get another bird and, while I haven't written off the idea it isn't high on the priority list. Though I kind of do like the idea of Sparky having several women around him...;)

Pado,

FrankenSpark is getting better every day - He's sleeping next to MeMe at the moment :cool: . 3 or 4 Hmmmm...you know Memmey talked me out of more originally, she may be able to talk me back into the idea...I think the cage would be able to support them AND I do have two back-up cages if needed ;) .

Cindy,

Wow, where do I begin...Thank you for the long and thoughtful response! I'm going to try to respond point by point both to more clearly explain my position as well as to initiate a dialogue on some of the points.

Re the box and drugs: I don't think Dr. McKinley's advice to get a nesting box was meant as a last resort but rather as a potentially simple way of reducing what is perceived as frustration. If it causes problems, it will be removed.

I think you, I and the doc are on the same wavelength regarding mood altering drugs.

Re 1: I agree with you on the sleep matter, I should also clarify; the birds generally tuck themselves in around 7 pm in the summer (they have a couple of dark secluded areas in the upper corners of their cage which are their sleeping areas) and get covered shortly after. They are covered with dark blankets (several due to the size of the cage ;) ). They do not get uncovered until a little before 7. This is a long and detailed way of confirming that I agree with you and I believe we have already implemented what you are suggesting.

Re lighting: They are in a west facing window (they get to enjoy sunsets :) ) as such, their area is quite dark and gloomy in the mornings. I use a 13W full spectrum fluorescent, which is less than was recommended to me, as a supplement, particularly for the mornings. The birds really seem to like it.

Re 2 Environment: We do not presently use a a purifier but I am considering it based on some previous posts - our upstairs neighbor smokes and occasionally my wife and I can detect the smell.

I installed a flow through whole house furnace humidifier, based on its design it remains clean. I am very happy with the increased humidity in the winter and I believe the birds were better off as well.

We no longer used distilled water, I have installed a reverse osmosis water filter and we use this as our water source for the birds. Also, I am of the opinion that sterile conditions weaken immune systems (in humans as well as birds) and therefore we keep things very clean but probably not to the same degree you suggest.

Our vacuum has a Hepa filter in it so I'm not concerned that it will kick up any dust, besides the birds sing along to it :) .

Re 3 Food: I must admit, this is my wife's department, I only help out. I'll tell my wife about your comments regarding sweet potatoes; I'll let you know the results.

I think we follow the rest of what you wrote regarding food already except we use Harrison's as a base. This includes giving them home grown sprouts daily (they no longer like mung beans :rolleyes: ), greens (they love brussel sprouts :) ) brown rice and lots of other stuff that I can't name without my wife being around. I'll ask her if she is giving them CoQ-10.

Oh, we give them a bit of whole grain pasta in a mixed salad - they love it.

5. Supplements: We are not presently giving any (to my knowledge) as we believe their diet is sufficiently balanced.

6. labs: Sparky has had a work-up since he began plucking but I think it's been a while (Sparky has been plucking for years - It seemed to be out of habit so I didn't mind until he recently lost the ability to fly). The results were normal. However, you are right; it may be worth another look!

7. Newspaper: good suggestion, I'll check it out! However, if we do this, they will have nothing to read! :D

Re. Dr. McKinley's advice: I recently heard or read a comment about Dr. McKinley not being comfortable around small birds. This has not been my experience. I think he is a little less agressive with small birds because he feels small birds cannot handle as much as big birds, I agree with his views on this. However, if something is needed it is clear to me that he has the experience. He demonstrated this to me when he successfully surgically repaired MeMe's eyelid (not to mention supergluing Sparky back together again :D ).

Finally, I am of the opinion that our birds are generally very happy and healthy. Of course they have issues, Sparky's was a minor case of plucking that we had previously eliminated any medical causes. However, now that the plucking has gotten worse and is effecting his quality of life, we are taking another hard look.

Cindy, thank you again and I look forward to your comments on my response.

Regards to all,

Art S.

ArtS

06-14-2007, 02:12 AM

Lily,

I'm looking forward to Cindy's explanation on that one as well!

Regards,

Art S.

ArtS

06-14-2007, 02:22 AM

Oh,

I totally forgot, my wife spoke to an Animal Behaviorist; Sparky may be going to see a birdie shrink...:D :D :D :D :D :D

I hope she hypnotizes him and makes him believe he's a chicken :D :D :D :D

Regards,

Art S.

lily

06-14-2007, 02:26 AM

Art, I understand Harrison's pellets contain both corn and soy. Are you going to try a no-pellet diet? It sounds as if your birds like a lot of different foods -- maybe they won't miss the pellets.

memmey

06-14-2007, 10:13 AM

Art what if is as simple as ya'll going on vacation ..seperation anxiety. No charge for this diagnosis.

ArtS

06-14-2007, 10:46 AM

Lily,

I leave food issues to my wife and at them moment, we are sticking with our vet's advice on sticking with Harrisons. If the other changes do not work, my wife may give a switch a try.

Memmey,

You may be onto something that we have been in the backs of our minds. I think they may like grandma's house better than ours - we've discovered that she gives them LOTS of treats and spoils them rotten. Also, Sparky initially started to pluck after a three month stay there (we were putting down new floors and didn't want to expose them to VOCs) and this latest phase happened after a 2 weeks stay there.

If this is the case, what do we do about it (besides never going away...:rolleyes: )?

Regards,

Art S.

Pado

06-14-2007, 01:16 PM

It would be interesting to find out if Sparky plucks while at Grandma’s house :eek: – If not, maybe Grandma is getting a permanent babysitting gig :p

memmey

06-14-2007, 04:06 PM

Think about it...It's not rocket science. You know how they are..he could have bonded with her and liked being there. He is a different little soul and maybe a stay seperate from "the Meem" at his grand mothers might do him some good. I know you and your wife love him but if your Mom would go for it, it would be a good experiment to see. Hey what have you got to lose...the check list in the previous thread is too much ( no offense anyone) . You've tried EVERYTHING else ...why not the simple and maybe the obivious? You have had him 8 years and counting, you know how to raise a p'let maybe the answer is under your nose. Sparky man may love the attention from his grandmother. Art you know how they are,he may be taken with her, it coulld be the tone of her voice, or her mannersims or the treats or whatever................well just make him the boy in the bubble and sterlize his food and wear gloves when you handle him and control the light and air.........or just try his grandmothers house for a while, he may love her.

Pado

06-14-2007, 04:42 PM

just make him the boy in the bubble

I’m eating my lunch and I almost choked–
Memmey you crack me up! :D :D

- but I get what you're saying -

marjet

06-14-2007, 04:54 PM

Art, did Sparky go for his wingfeathers again in the last few days, or is it too early to say?
He always was a happy bird despite the plucking, wasn't he? Maybe the 'light issue' as mentioned somewhere above, might get you further => I mean: it might cool him off a bit if he thinks it isn't the perfect time for breeding :rolleyes:
The way he and his sister live together sounds like moderate mariage to me: keep each other company, quarrel every now and then and the 'getting together thing' is slightly underrated by one of them :D
Actually I think that being too cautious of bacteries might not be the solution -without wanting to offend anyone who thinks otherwise! All living have to cope with bacteries and keeping them away from it will only make them more vulnerable to diseases I believe.

ArtS

06-14-2007, 06:03 PM

Memmey,

I'd consider it but I think grandma prefers visits to full time care ;) .

I kind of like the idea of the boy in the bubble tough - bubbleSparky! It could be like a free rolling hamster wheel :D .

I like where Cindy is coming from but considering Sparky has been known to pick up and fling his own poop, I suspect a set of slightly more basic precautions are generally sufficient. That said, I'm the one with the plucker :rolleyes: .

Marjet,

I have not noticed any additional damage. He plucked one wing so he has one wing with feathers and one without this makes him very unstable in the air - which is why he crashes badly if he tries to fly.

He has always been a very happy and friendly bird but I think not being able to fly bothers him. He is learning to adapt though.

For me, the bacteia issue is like everything else, we keep the birds and their cage very clean but not sterile. To me, it's a balance and since my birds have not gotten any illnesses or infections in 8 years (hopefully I haven't just jinxed myself) I think we are doing OK in this department.

Regards,

Art S.

Cindy215

06-14-2007, 06:05 PM

Well, actually I think it IS like rocket science. Because for decades the academics do not have a solution to plucking. Sometimes there is none, sometimes one single thing gets it to stop.

I would be more focused on what variables are different at the other house. Normally the common reasons for plucking are food, bacteria and environment (like boredom, cage placement or airborne things).

I dont think I made it sound like sterile environment. To me that is good bird cage maintenance. I wipe down cages every single day at bedtime and wash my hands before anybody nibbles them. It only takes 3 minutes.

Which is how I was able to have a pet store for a decade without one single sickness or death from illness. Only aggression. Which takes us back to breeding behaviors and tempting fate with nest boxes. Especially now because breeding season is over in the Northern Hemisphere on July 15, the longest day of the year. Then incrementally the days get shorter and they enter molting season. That's only a month away.

I dont have time to respond more, just got home but wanted to comment on the perception of immune systems and what different people consider "clean". IMO a plucked AND seriously injured bird doesnt have the immune system to fight off invaders and I would be taking precautions that may sound excessive but actually are part of my daily husbandry. But that's just me.

Cindy215

06-14-2007, 06:24 PM

No offense taken. I'm not the one with pluckers, birds killing other birds and other neurotic behaviors so I'm totally ok. I've listened to my vet and very experienced mentor rescue friends over a couple of decades....and never dismiss anything they tell me. And usually they are always right on the money.

No offfense to anyone here either but if you read the Feather Destructive Behavior thread Art posted ...(below)...it is saying the same things I'm saying. And more. I gave you the short list off the cuff.

Note that providing nest boxes is not a cure on that FDB thread. No offense.

Nobody is living in your house, Art, so it's really not possible to guess because there are so many variables. Say for example you put a video on during the day of other birds. That will do it in the case of Parrotlets because it's a common response. But nobody could ever even guess something like that. UNLESS we have seen it before so we'd think to ask you. Just as an example.

I have to disagree that EVERYTHING has been done. As long as you wont change the pellets you're not doing a basic elimination diet/environment baseline which is the first thing everyone in the world does for skin and allergy issues. Human or animal.

I dont mean to sound aggressive here, it's just my style of writing.

http://www.talkparrotlets.com/showthread.php?p=4741#post4741

ArtS

06-14-2007, 06:25 PM

Cindy,

I hope you have not taken offence, none was intended. I am grateful for your insight and input. Our routine is fairly similar to yours but somehow in your original post, it sounded a bit more riggerous which is what I and I think others, were responding to.

I agree that the plucking may be caused by one thing but that one thing may not be easy to find or easy to correct. Between this post, our vet and some of my wife's co-workers (who happen to be vets), we have a number of things to try, and hopefully some extra insight. Since we don't want to turn Sparky's and MeMe's world upside down, we plan on working through this at a relatively slow pace (absent any emergencies).

Regards,

Art S.

PS. Cindy, this was a response to the first of your two posts. Unfortunately, I have to run to a meeting and will have to continue this later.

AndreaFahy

06-14-2007, 06:32 PM

re: the "nest box" in my thread is for security mostly, thus the empty bottom to prevent true nesting behavior. Just thought I would clarify. A lot of birds don't have any cozy to retreat to and, especially if in site of a window, can (rarely, but sometimes) cause some anxiety. This slight chance is significantly decreased when birds are kept in species appropriate pairs.

memmey

06-14-2007, 08:49 PM

Hey Cindy was the reference to birds killing other birds meant for me. Bitsey Jo did indeed kill her mate . It happened before I rescued her. I have had her 8 years and counting.
You know some of us just have a way of posting some funny, some concerned, some like to tease each other. Alot of us have been on this site since it began. Dave has made a nice place for us to visit and post. I'm not a Vet but I like Art and his bird alot, as well as Pado and Sally and Kathy and Marjet from so faraway and Andrea has been helpful with her information and a whole lot of others. I don't recall anyone going out of their way to be aggressive. Why would anyone want to be aggressive? I'm using the word aggessive because I believe you were the one who mentioned it.

lily

06-15-2007, 01:47 AM

My bird was hand fed by a person who made sure the babies were exposed to the real world so that they wouldn't be overwhelmed by bacteria when they went to live in a new environment. I am grateful that I don't have to treat her like a bubble birdie. However, I have done extensive research on what makes people overly sensitive to the point that they can't live normal lives, and I think that systematically working through possible sources of molds, VOCs, and bacteria in the environment is a sensible step in a household where the pet bird is plucking. I suspect any product in your home that has a fragrance to it as capable of causing plucking. If you want, you can buy a mold test kit at Lowe's to see if your humidifier or kitchen or whatever is a possible source of mold that could be bothering a plucking bird (and could eventually hurt you). Perhaps giving the bird a probiotic could help it fight off potential bacteria (not that you could quit cleaning cages!!).

It facinates me that Sparky's plucking happens after --or starts during-- a trip to Grandma's. I am looking forward to learning if Grandma ever noticed extra preening at her house. Gee, it could be her handlotion or potpourri!

ArtS

06-15-2007, 10:11 AM

Cindy,

I appreciate your input.

Just to be clear, I've never said that everything has been done or that the planned next steps are actions of last resort. Quite the contrary. We are just starting to explore the causes of what is going on and just beginning to take action.

We may eventually change our birds diet but we are going to make only one or two changes at a time in order to minimize the stress on the birds. We dicided that changing their diet is not the first change on the list.

We have checked our birds records and dicided that it has been a long time since our birds blood was last taken, as such, a work-up will be done in the next few days.

Andrea,

Our birds already have a couple of cozy places to get away from things. My wife will ask for some clarity from Dr.McKinley on this when she sees him for the blood work. I think there is a reasonableness to his approach but personally, I'm not thrilled with it because I am generally opposed to inbreeding.

Memmey,

It is obvious that Cindy is very passionate about birds, much like the rest of us, I take what she is saying as trying to help especially in light of the near disaster we had with Sparky earlier this week. I'm assuming the agressiveness Cindy was reffering to was her agressive writing style. It didn't offend me, I hope you weren't offended either.

Lily,

The plucking does not occur at grandma's house only upon the birds return. As far as i know grandma is very careful around them so I don't think it is because of grandma but, if these visits are a potential cause, it more likely has to do with returning to our house.

Regards,

Art S.

Pado

06-15-2007, 02:16 PM

Awe, that was nice of you to say Memmey, we love you too ;) and of course Bitsy’Jo!

*******

Debates and shared information like this is AWESOME IMO – We can pick out from different opinions that which works best for our own situation.

Its difficult to determine emotions from emails – as facial and body language go a long way in a face to face debate with us humans: :) – An emotion in an email can be perceived differently from person to person – although sometimes warranted :rolleyes:

Art hit on a perfect word for Cindy’s mails – “Passionate” - Cindy I think you are very passionate about the advice you give on birds and their well being and I can say I’ve benefited greatly from it – I believe I’ve had one of the smoothest bird introductions on record because of it :D .. and I also love long emails :D

Advice is beneficial to us in all forms – from passionate to humorous to even questionable – like I said we can all pick and choose which makes sense to us and which works for us.

This trend on plucking is very interesting as it may benefit all of us in years to come should our birds decide to start plucking - but hopefully we’ll never need it :p

So I say keep it comin’ :)

musicjan

06-15-2007, 04:48 PM

Bitsy has also benefited greatly from Cindy's passion and knowledge. Won't share the whole story with you, but he's a much happier bird due to her input. And, I might say, also due to the input of many others at this board and others.

I think we all share the common goal of making our birds happier and healthier -

So once again, Art and your wife - good luck with and good luck to Sparky, the little stinker!

marjet

06-17-2007, 06:35 PM

I join Pado here Memmey: like you too ;)

... Art and your wife - good luck with and good luck to Sparky, the little stinker!

And 'Amen' to that!

ArtS

06-21-2007, 11:36 AM

Hello All,

I've been in Detroit on business (got stuck there an extra day due to thunderstorms :mad: ). I'm probobly leaving for Europe tomorrow (this sounds good but business travel does not have the same fun factor that vacation travel does).

Anyway, a quick Sparky update: Sparky went to the vet on Tuesday to have blood drawn. After having blood drawn, he wouldn't stop bleeding. Fortunately my wife spotted it quickly enough that the vet was able to repond quickly. He applied pressure to the spot for about 10 minutes until the bleeding stopped. Sparky lost a lot of blood and almost died. He was really kind of out of it afterwards and covered in blood but was able to sit on his preach.

The vet said that this was highly unusual and NOT a good sign. The vet and my wife decided that Sparky should stay overnight at the hospital for observation. He got an injection of fluids and was tube fed during his stay.

The overnight stay stabilized him and the vet though that he would recover faster if he was home, so the my wife took him home mid-day yesterday. He was chirping all the way home and totally excited to see MeMe (MeMe was probobly a bit less excited to see Sparky...:rolleyes: ).

He still seems weak but is doing OK. Anyway, the adventure continues; if every step is going to be this traumatic, I think I can live with his plucking...

Regards,

Art S.

musicjan

06-21-2007, 01:50 PM

Art, this was awful to read! I agree with you 100 percent. I'd go with the plucking -- Poor guy, and your poor wife!

ArtS

06-21-2007, 02:19 PM

Jan,

I feel particularly bad for my wife. I convinced her to have birds again.

Before I met her, she had a really sweet parakeet that died while having blood drawn. She swore she wouldn't have another bird because she didn't want to go through that kind of emotion again. Well, it almost happened again! :mad:

Regards,

Art S.

memmey

06-21-2007, 02:40 PM

lily

06-21-2007, 04:05 PM

Oh, this is hard to read. I feel so bad for Sparky and what it is putting the two of you through! I hope Sparky is his old chipper self by the time you get home again.

I don't want to sound cold and clinical, but Sparky's latest adventure may hold another clue to the plucking problem--if it is uncommon for little birds to bleed dangerously after having blood drawn. If it is unusual, as it would be for people, perhaps the excessive bleeding and the plucking have a common factor which might be part of the puzzle. I'll research this aspect next week, when I'll have some time. In the meantime, hang in there, Sparky!!! (You, too, Art.)

musicjan

06-21-2007, 04:21 PM

Art, I too feel badly for your wife. Poor thing. Are you considering just letting the poor fellow alone for a while? It must be sad to watch- he's obviously a special little guy. I've only had Bitsy for 6 months, and I/we are so attached! You've had Sparky for 8 years! I can't imagine the concern. I'm glad you posted - I'd been wondering what was going on.

Pado

06-21-2007, 05:48 PM

Art I have not been here that much lately because my beloved dog Skeeter is just about to leave this world. He is 10 with conjestive heart failure. He was a rescue and the best friend a person could want, right now I could just scream because it is not fair that he only gets 10 years in this life. I'm thinking of Sparky and speaking of him in my prayers for Skeet. Good luck Art.

Memmey – I am so saddened to hear about your dog Skeeter – 10 years is not a long time, I can contest to that first hand. Skeeter is lucky to have somebody like you to care and to love him - especially at this time because you are the one who has to make that difficult decision for him. I will keep you and Skeeter in my prayers.

Patrick -

Pado

06-21-2007, 05:57 PM

Art – Sparky is a fighter that’s for sure – and he’ll pull through this – but I must agree with you, given the options I think I’d live with the plucking from now on. At least the Dr. has his blood and hopefully can get you an answer.

After hearing the story about your wife’s experience with her parakeet – I’m glad Sparky decided to take a different route.

Have a great and safe trip and keep us posted upon your return.

Cheers -

ArtS

06-21-2007, 11:28 PM

Memmey,

I'm very sorry to hear about your dog. My thoughts are with you and Skeet.

Lily,

I'm thinking along the same lines. I look forward to reading what you discover.

Jan,

Its been tough especially getting the play by play by cellphone as it was happening while sitting at Detroit airport and having no way to get home :mad: . That said, Sparky is back on the upswing :). Today he was showing signs of being his same old lovable, nutty self. Though it is still frustrating when he tries to fly - falls - then looks around wondering what happened :rolleyes: .

Pado,

I'm glad Sparky took a different route as well :) . We're not sure what we are doing next. Considering the scare, we will probobly take a little breather, but it's tough having Sparky not being able to fly.

Regards to all,

Art S.

Kathy

06-22-2007, 12:29 AM

Art -- Oh my goodness, I stopped checking into this thread for a while there and had NO idea things got this bad. I am so terribly sorry to hear about all of Sparky's misfortunes. I don't know the first thing about plucking, so won't have anything helpful to say, but I hope that things get better for you, your wife, Sparky, and MeMe.

Memmey -- Oh no, I'm very sad to hear about Skeet. No matter how many years we share with our beloved pets, it's never enough. Skeet will be in my prayers.

marjet

06-23-2007, 04:42 AM

Oh dear!
Art, you and your family live in 'exciting' times! :eek: What a shocking news to hear when you're far from home... Good luck for Spark, your wife and you! Have a save trip and enjoy Europe if you can (coming anywhere near Holland? :D )

ArtS

07-11-2007, 01:54 PM

Hi all,

Several people have asked how Sparky is and I haven't been up to posting lately but I'm finally getting around to it.

There have been no major 'events', which is a good thing! Sparky, since eliminating his ability to fly has become much more timid. He gets a bit nervous if we try to take him out. But we do take him out and lie on the floor with him – it’s surprising how fast he can run:D ! MeMe will usually join the fun on the floor. The problem is, if we bring him to the door of the cage, he momentarily forgets his condition and tries to fly :eek: . We've learned to be ready to catch him so that he doesn't go thud on the carpet...:rolleyes: .

To prevent the 'thud' problem in the cage, my wife has put towels under the papers in the cage so that when he jumps from a high perch, he has a cushioned landing :) . We also installed the nest box, it is inside the cage (I'll probably modify it to fit in one of the nest box openings built into the cage so it can hang on the outside). Thus far, Sparky hasn't gone near it but MeMe has been on top of it, attracted by the treats we put there :cool: .

This leads me to the most noticeable change. We have noticed a change in behavior in both Sparky and MeMe. The dominance has reversed! MeMe has become the dominant bird in the pair! Whereas previously, MeMe was a sweet little green lump, she now has PERSONALITY!! :eek: :D . She wants to hang out with us and play, she flies over to us, she isn't afraid of ANYTHING, she bosses Sparky around but is mostly benign towards him. Generally speaking, she has become a really great pet!

My wife still wants to bring in a bird behaviorist but we haven't had a chance yet (nor am I particularly inclined to do so...).

All in all, things are both good and stable at the moment.

Regards,

Art S.

Pado

07-11-2007, 05:39 PM

MeMe kicking poor Sparky when he’s down - she must be LOVIN’ IT :D

Hopefully Sparky will let his wings grow in and all will be well again –

It is interesting to hear the changes in the two – nature is pretty amazing. Although in the wild that would have been a death sentence for Sparky – so he should be counting his blessings :p

I’m dying to hear what the behaviorist has to say!!!!

Art - glad to hear things are stable.

ArtS

07-11-2007, 10:17 PM

Newsflash........

Sparky cut himself again, on what - we don't know. Anyway, he bled but seems OK - Sparky cannot be killed by conventional means...:cool:

Ellen may take him in to get superglued again tomorrow, we will call the doc in the morning to see if if it's necessary. I wonder if he offers volume discounts :rolleyes: .

Art S.

musicjan

07-11-2007, 11:25 PM

Poor Sparky - this is hard to believe. It seems that the odds have been "stacked against him" - poor little guy. I hope he will be better soon!

Pado

07-12-2007, 01:38 PM

OMG - thats unbelievable with all Sparkys been through. I wonder what he could be doing to himself.

Could there be a sharp point someplace inside the cage? When I got my cage I had to file down some sharp points ( I had found three ) they were inside the cage.... and as we're gathered these cages are more than likely made in the same Chinese factory. Although I could see a foot getting cut on the ones I found but not the bird - but you never know.

At least Sparky has his sister - so he has a live in transfusion donor should he ever need one - :rolleyes:

I hope he gets through this bout soon.

memmey

07-12-2007, 09:33 PM

ArtS

07-12-2007, 11:21 PM

Jan, Pado and Memmey,

Thank you for your concern and your kind words. You guys and the rest of the members that chime in are part of the Sparky support group :) .

Sparky made it through the night just fine and we put the divider in the cage so they didn't get too rambunctious while we were away. I was able to take a long lunch break and check in on them. Sparky was particularly chatty when I checked in on him - so, more or less, I think he's fine. We decided not to go through the trauma of a vet trip (though both birds seem to grown to enjoy car rides...:) )

By the way, we've rigged up a bunch or ropes to help Sparky get around in the cage and he has become really nimble on them.

Pado,

Ellen thinks that the feather stubs that aren't completely pulled out are catching on things when he crashes and this is causing the skin to get stretched and torn - thus requiring superglue...;) .

Memmey,

I feel really bad for you and Skeet :( but I think we are dealing with different things. I think you put our situation very well. Since Sparky's issues are more injury (self inflicted and otherwise:rolleyes: ) we do pretty much "follow him with super glu and pray" (though more figuritively than literally).

I think your situation is a bit different, you are dealing with end of life issues and you need to decide what is best for both you and Skeet from a comfort and quality of life point of view. These decisions are much more difficult than ours :( and my thoughts go out to you.

I wish you good luck in dealing with this and I hope you become at ease with the situation and Skeet remains comfortable during the remainder of his life.

Art S.

Pado

07-13-2007, 02:43 PM

We're all pulling for Sparky - ;)

Pado

07-13-2007, 03:12 PM

I know were using humor but really I kinda want to cry. I guess cause of the situation here. Skeet takes his last meds tomorrow and the vet won't give him anymore till he sees him again, except Skeet has gone blind and can't see him. So the next visit will be at least $300 and the last one was over $300 and he is still gonna die cause you can't fix what is wrong. So do I spend and spend and still lose my dog or do I let my dog go? Reading about little Sparky makes me think about how much money and emotional investment you make and sometimes you can't fix it. Sparky may never make the connection that he can't fly and what do Art and his wife do follow him with super glu and pray? No matter how good the care and love you give them sometimes you can't make it right. This is the trade off when you love an animal. You recieve unconditonal love and such gratitude for a little kindness to them and we think that it is free, we take it for granted but it's not free. In the end you have to pay for it with the saddness you feel when you lose them. You don't want to lose that sweet face looking at you be it bird or dog and in the end nothing lasts forever. I hope little Sparky does OK and I hope I have the courage to do the right thing.........

Memmey - I can hear your despair in your email and I'm confident you will know when its the right time.

Putting a pet down is a very very difficult decision but one we have to make should the circumstances call for it.

My last Dog we had to put her down at 10 years of age because of failing kidneys. She was a Chinese Shar-Pei and was the offspring of the dogs being interbred to bring back the breed. We could see her quality of life was not good and there was no hope of her getting any better.

When we noticed her quality of life diminishing we felt it was the most humane thing to do for her. It was a very difficult decision but I saw in her eyes it was time.

Memmey you will know when its time for Skeeter - listen to your intuition and remember you are in our thoughts.

LucyP

07-13-2007, 03:24 PM

Memmey... I hope your beloved doggy doesn't suffer too much.

It's so tough... My dad had to euthanize his cockatiel recently. Poor thing had lost all its feathers and had a major seizure. He was just a little gargoyle with a crest. Then these tumours appeared. There was an option to have a wing-ectomy to remove the first tumour on his wing but that just seemed really cruel, so my parents kept him around, without his feathers for awhile. At first he was still pretty happy, singing to himself in the mirror and demanding scritches and that but then he got another tumour and was just turned listless so my dad had to make that very difficult decision.
I know we all felt really bad and my dad had tears in his eyes afterwards. But we sit around and discuss Brian's funny antics and his tea ceremony complete with figure 8 victory dance and remember the good times before he got sick...
Feeling so sad is just part of loving something so much.. when you think about people just releasing their pets into the wild.. no matter what happens, you have probably given your dog an incredibly great life.

lily

07-13-2007, 04:25 PM

Art S, We're pulling for Sparky here, too. I was surprised that vets use superglue to put Sparky back together. Is it really super glue like you buy in the hardware store or is it that liquid bandage stuff? Is this something we should learn to do in case we are unable to get to a vet's? Anyway, another observation-- I read somewhere about removing damaged/ chewed feathers so that further damage would be avoided. That might be something to research and ask the vet if the stubs are what cause trouble.

Memmey, I know how hard the last years are with a beloved old pet. I've been through the death process with 5 of my dogs and cats and as a caregiver for several others. Most of my animals died in my arms; one was euthanized. Both ways are the right decision; both take courage. My thoughts are with you.

ArtS

07-13-2007, 05:02 PM

lily,

I was told that it was medical grade superglue. The doc told my wife that the riskiest part of the proceedure was making sure he didn't accidently superglue his finger to the bird :D :D :D .

Good idea regarding the damaged feathers. We will speak with the vet about this (I'm not sure if I'm up to pulling the feathers out myself and I know my wife wouldn't be up for it).

Regards,

Art S.

artistnut

07-13-2007, 05:21 PM

ArtS,

Glad to hear that Sparky is doing a bit better. It has been very educational to read all the suggestions and remedies. I hope that he avoids any more misadventures in the near future.

Memmey,
My heart goes out to you. I have had dogs my entire life and have had most die in my arms and one by an accident. It is one of the hardest things to deal with in life, as they are your children. Like Pado said, you will know in your heart what to do and when to do it. We are all there for you.

lily

07-16-2007, 01:38 AM

Art, gluing myself to the bird was exactly what I was thinking. I can't even superglue a teacup without gluing myself to something, and teacups don't wriggle like parrotlets do. Can't you just see the vet taking off his jacket at the end of the day with a parrotlet glued to his thumb, telling the parrotlet's person to come back in a couple of days? Or, "Take two asprin and call me in the morning."

ArtS

07-20-2007, 08:24 PM

Lily,

Fortunately, that has not been among our problems...yet...:rolleyes:

Regards,

Art S.

ArtS

07-20-2007, 08:29 PM

Just a quick update:

Bad news: Sparky jumped from a high perch in his cage and cut his wing again.

Good news: cut wasn't bad enough to warrent treatment (the new injury upset my wife but I'm getting used to these occurances :rolleyes: ).

More good news: Sparky now has a single tail feather coming in :) :) :) . It is still rolled up and looks like a cigar coming out of his butt :D :D :D . Anyone care to place bets on how long he leaves it in :o .

Regards,

Art S.

musicjan

07-20-2007, 09:53 PM

Art, I'm sure glad to hear the good news about the feather!!! Let's hope he actually leaves it in!! I can't believe he cut his wing again. It's unbelievable to me that so much could happen to one little bird - and especially after all these years! I'm hoping to see you post soon that he has more feathers!

ArtS

07-20-2007, 10:46 PM

Wellll....the tail feather has been removed! Ellen let the birds play together this evening and they played nicely together while Ellen did various bits of housework, the next thing Ellen knew, the was a wild eep and when she went to investigate, everyone looked very innocent but the feather was on the bottom of the cage :( :rolleyes: .

They are now both back in their separate corners.

Art S.

memmey

07-21-2007, 02:00 AM

Well was it MeMe the beautician......I hope not. Sparky just can't catch a break....if it was the meem, then she NEEDS time out.
Sparky is sorta like Charlie Brown. What a blockhead.
By the way the feather description.....a little too graphic, try to restrain yourself....*L*

ArtS

07-21-2007, 03:30 AM

Memmey,

What are you doing up so late? It's past your bedtime ;) .

By the way, the rolled up single long feather coming out of his rear was REALLY funny! If wish I found my camera before the geniuses removed it.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. I am suspecting the Meem as she has taken to trying to preen my wife :) . This consists of her carefully studying my wife's skin, including her lips then proceeding to remove anything that happens to offend her :eek: . These are not bites or nips, they are more like chews!! My wife has lost chunks of lip and shoulder recently :mad: . MeMe's given me a few nibbles but I have yet to lose any skin to the sweet, evil, little monster ;) .

PPS. Hey! Post 600!!!

musicjan

07-22-2007, 11:04 AM

Very interesting! I actually considered making this suggestion (that it might be MeMe) when I posted last night. It would be sad for them not to be able to play, but it would sure be good if Spark could have his wings again!

Pado

07-23-2007, 02:18 PM

From bad news, Sparky cutting his wing -
To good news, he's fine with an added bonus, a new tail feather -
Back to bad news, MeMe removing said tail feather and all this in one day !

I don't know what to say except this Sucks -

marjet

07-29-2007, 05:05 PM

I'm absolutely thorn between falling from my chair with laughing or scolding the little rascals for pulling cigars, I mean feathers...
The way you write about it is totally hilarious and I would like to suggest to go and write a nice small book about living together with parrotlets!
But on the other hand: the plucking isn't funny at all :mad: Nor must it be fun to see Sparky cut himself time after time.

ArtS

07-29-2007, 10:17 PM

Welcome to the 101st post of this thread!

Marjet, thank you for the nice words, I think you captured the situation well :) both funny, sad and frustrating!

I am happy to report that Sparky is, more or less, doing well - all things considered - he has two new tail feathers coming in and at least one wing feather is growing.

Although he is still very skittsh because of his condition, we gave both birds a shower - we put both birds in one of their old cages and put it in the tub, spraying them using a hand held shower head with slightly cool water. This was tollerated but, Sparky really seemed to enjoy cuddling with my wife while he dried off, it's been the first time in quite a while that he has been calm enough for a good long snuggle :) .

Here are some pictures taken this evening, shortly before they went to bed:

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n10/Suckewer/IMG_2656-Action_Sparky-cropped.jpg
Action Sparky...:cool:

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n10/Suckewer/IMG_2678-The_conversation-cropped.jpg
MeMe was out climbing around and decided to come over to Sparky for a few kisses :)

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n10/Suckewer/IMG_2705-cropped.jpg
Here you can see Sparky's tail feathers peaking through, they are a little less cigar like than they were earlier in the week.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n10/Suckewer/IMG_2709-cropped.jpg
Look at MeMe's eye, that's either the look of love...or she's found a feather she wants to remove from Sparky's head :D - you decide ;)

Sally

07-30-2007, 02:01 AM

I still don't understand. How does he get cut? Can you put him in a safer cage where he cannot fall? I feel so sad for him. He is getting plucked and he is also plucking? Poor baby.

memmey

07-30-2007, 11:21 AM

Whew he looks alot better than I had pictured....thank goodness. They are siblings right? Did you happen to notice the video I posted of Bean and his brother? One looks like Sparky too. Hummm this must not be uncommon among siblings raised together. Sparky looks better. Your wife must be one good girl to save him so far. She loves him..........

Pado

07-30-2007, 01:15 PM

Wow - those are great pictures Art - I'm glad you posted them, its nice to see Sparky and MeMe - Sparky looks like a Chick :)

I love the one of MeMe hanging upside down visiting with him - thats great news he has some new tail and flight feathers coming in - ;)

ArtS

07-31-2007, 12:16 AM

Sally,

I'm not sure exactly but I have some suspicions. The best way to describe his actions that cause his injuries is that he 'freaks out'. He jumps from his highest perch flapping madly - and he can flap really fast because he doesn't have feathers on his right wing to provide resistance. Also, since he has uneven lift due to having one wing with no flight feathers and one wing with a few left (I knew my engineering degree would be useful some day ;) :D ), he spins out of control on his way down.

I think the mad flapping really adds a lot of force to whatever he hits, either causes his old wound to open up or new tears to occur. We've put rolled up soft towels under the newspaper to soften his landing and minimize the objects he can hit on the way down but he is a talented bird :rolleyes: .

Memmey,

They are clutchmates. Also, my wife thanks you for the kind words:) !

I have not seen the video, do you have a link? I've read somewher on the net that parrotlets are one of the species that are more prone to plucking - this surprised me as I thought this was more prominent among the larger birds.

Pado,

Thanks!

I agree on the chick assessment - even more so in person!

Don't hold your breath on the wing and tail feathers, I somehow doubt that he's learned his lesson :rolleyes: .

Regards,

Art S.

memmey

07-31-2007, 01:09 AM

Art look under the fav parrotlet picture thread we have going. I posted a youtube video of Bean and Sprout. Take a look at Sprout....looks like The Sparky. I don't trust the Meen....once a beautician always a beautician.

Sally

07-31-2007, 01:47 AM

Can he be moved to a safer, somehow padded cage to heal?

ArtS

08-03-2007, 08:15 PM

Its past 7pm on a Friday and I'm still at my office :( .

My wife sent me this picture she just took to cheer me up. It's entitled 'knuckleheads' :)

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n10/Suckewer/Knuckelheads.jpg

Oh, I was informed that Sparky decided he preferred to continue to be tailless and removed at least on of his new tailfeathers :rolleyes: .

Regards,

Art S.

ArtS

08-03-2007, 08:19 PM

Memmey,

I saw the Bean and Sprout videos. Sprout looks just like Sparky used to before the genius 'took it to the next level' :rolleyes: .

Sally,

We've padded the cage and made it as friendly for him as possible. My wife is looking into raising the floor by putting foam under the towels to make his landings even softer and reducing the distance he can fall.

Regards,

Art S.

Pado

08-03-2007, 08:40 PM

Ah - thats a great picture Art - MeMe may help in plucking him sometimes but she loves him :)

If it makes you feel any better I'm still in my office also - Although its only 4:30pm here :D :D yeah, I know not the same thing :D

We have a fish tank in our lobby but alls thats left in it is a single water frog - the thing has been living in it for about 9 years and just lives on and on and on - he's outlived his mate and many many many fish. We don't want to add to the tank cause when he's gone so is the tank -
So I've been doing a water change - Can you tell fridays are busy around here or what :D

memmey

08-04-2007, 01:14 AM

Referring to the "knucklehead " photo....aren't we all just a little disfunctional, I mean really......I feel like pulling my hair out some days.
What ever is inside little Sparkys head....I could probably relate. *L*

marjet

08-05-2007, 04:35 AM

Oh wow, what an adorable picture!
These little imperfections give men a certain zest, don't you agree Memmey? ;)

memmey

08-05-2007, 11:06 AM

Uh Huh, it's the rescue gene.

marjet

08-08-2007, 09:16 AM

Oops, you could be right there...
Well, then I didn't say anything :p

ArtS

09-11-2007, 10:08 PM

Well much has happened since I last updated this thread.

First off, we almost lost Sparky. He climbed out of the cage and onto our floor where Ellen and I played with him - it was good to have him out of the cage (we don't take him out any more because he tends to try to fly and he has about as much ability in that department as you or I :rolleyes: .)

When it was time to put him away, we put him on a rope that ran across the cage. Once he got on it, we discovered that he was unable to balance on it because it was loose! He was flapping wildly, flipping from one side to the other. We couldn't stableize the rope enough for him to step off and the next thing we knew, Sparky was hanging from the rope with his eyes slowly closing. When I was a kid, I lost a budgie to a heart attack - the symptoms were the same. I supported Sparky and had Ellen untie the ends of the rope from the cage (he was lifeless but wouldn't release from the rope). I held him against my chest hoping he would recover but expecting him to die in my arms. After 5 or 10 minutes, he opened his eye! :) :) :) At that point, I thought he had a chance! After about 5 or 10 more minutes (it's not a situation that is easy to keep track of time with) he recovered enough to be cranky with me for holding him :D . We then put him back in his cage and tried to calm ourselves.

He has since had a couple of bleeding incidents but these don't bother us nearly as much as they used to. I tend to doubt Sparky will die of old age but we're growing more used to him getting battle damage.

Regards,

Art S.

ArtS

09-11-2007, 10:08 PM

The therapist :cool: :

Our vet recommended that we bring in a parrot behaviorist for Sparky to see if that might help. Ellen told me that if a vet recommends someone other than another vet, they must be really good... Personally, I wasn't too fond of the idea of bringing in a bird shrink to shink Sparky's brain even further.

After a while Ellen convinced me and we scheduled a home visit. The incident above happened while we were waiting. Anyway, Liz Wilson came on the morning of Saturday, August 18th. She stayed with us all morning reveiwing our situation. I was pleased to find that the session was more about teaching the owners about bird behavior and making recommendations of how to better care for the birds.

We found out that we were doing a pretty good job (she liked the size of the cage :D ). And the care we were giving was quite good - she said that this made her job more difficult as there was no obvious cause for Sparky's condition. She said that whatever initially caused it was, most likely, no longer occuring and that the plucking was now probobly the result of a bad habit - much like biting fingernails. She mentioned that one theory is that poor hand rearing may be the cause of birds being not well adapted to changes in their environment or other issues - if this was the case, something minor could have triggered the plucking and we'll never know what it was. She also mentioned bad wing clips (those that let birds drop like stones.) She says there is an intermediate clip, which none of our practioners seem to have heard of....

The main suggestions that I took away from the session were:

- raise the floor of the cage so that Sparky has a shorter distance to fall - this should also make him feel safer - we did this, raising the padded floor half way up. This really helped Sparky - he seems much more secure and happy!

- As we couldn't give the birds their own room (our place is too small), to get a white noise generator so that the noise we made would be percieved as background noise (these guys need 12 hours of good sleep). We bought a hepa room air filter to both clean the air and provide white noise.

- Train the birds! Use clicker training to teach the birds tricks and give them activities; including teaching them how to play with their toys!! Apparently, some birds just don't get this concept :rolleyes: . Ellen has been training them. MeMe has really taken to it! Sparky is having a tougher go of it.

- Servicing their cages at night rather than the morning. It might be particular to our birds, but Sparky is stressed whenever hands go into his cage and MeMe has become cage-territorial towards Ellen. Neither of them seem to be bothered if she changes their paper, etc., once they've tucked in for the evening.

These changes have been working very well at reducing both the birds' and Ellen's stress levels :) .

Regards,

Art S.

nar1122

09-11-2007, 10:18 PM

Wow. That is a lot of stress for you guys.

I am sorry to hear what happened with Sparky, including the major scare to you and Ellen.

I am SO glad that he is better now and that you have done all you could to help.

Good luck to all three of you!

:)

musicjan

09-12-2007, 09:58 AM

Art, it was painful to read about the incident with Sparky. I can't imagine being there as you and Ellen were! What a happy ending, however - that he made it through. It sounds as though Liz was a lot of help to you - hooray! It's interesting that she sited the bad wing clips. Bitsy certainly had one when we got him -- it made me so sad. Best of luck to you and Ellen - let's hope things are on a more positive path now!

Mustang99

09-12-2007, 01:25 PM

Art, I read back through the thread and I'm so glad that Sparky made it through that ordeal. I hope everything moves forward for the better. Sparky is such a lucky bird to have you and Ellen right there and helping him. Well done!

Pado

09-12-2007, 03:29 PM

Art - I'm starting to think that Sparky is doing this on purpose - him an MeMe are probably giggling to themselves behind your and Ellen's back - That playing dead thing - c'mon, he'll pulling your leg !!!

I'm sure the therapist WAS sweating when she met with you and saw how you keep them and care for them :) - Although she saved herself with the suggestions she gave - the white noise is a very interesting concept and makes sense - and raising the floor.

Keep us up on how the clicker training goes and if Sparky comes around to it - I've wanted to try it since Andrea brought it up but just haven't. I do my cage cleaning at night when the birds are out of their cage so I'm glad to hear thats a positive.

Overall I think you received some really good advice from her.

ArtS

10-01-2007, 06:40 PM

So the downward spiral continues:

Sparky had become phobic and had become terrified of everything, often not coming out of his cozy spot. When he did come out, he could be spooked into a panick which would have him running around the bottom of his cage desparately trying to fly crying for help. This would usually result in him hitting something with his wing and bleeding moderately to heavily - although we've gotten used to the bleeding, his condition was really breaking our hearts.

We've decided to take the next few steps together in hope of changing his condition:

Sparky is now on Prozac - I'm not kidding...:rolleyes: . We picked it up on Thursday evening and began administering it Saturday morning - the dosage is .1ML or 2 drops. The idea is to capture him under a towel, imobilize his head (the vet showed us how) and gently squirt the prozac solution into his beak - we're not sure how much we are actually getting into him because I would call this activity more of an art than a science but today's program seemed to go smoother than the last two days.

Ellen, my wife, also noticed that the light relecting off of passing cars often made Sparky flinch so, she put a sheet in front of his cage in order to block his view.

Finally, we brought in the heavy artillary! Sparky seems to really like Ellen's mom, so we brought her over to try to interact with him on Saturday and amazingly (after we administer the Prozac and put up the sheet), she was able to feed him nutriberries through the cage!

Anyway, these things have resulted in Sparky starting to chirp and sing again and he ate out of Ellen's hand (through the cage bars) as well. So things are looking up.

Mewhile Ellen has come to the conclusion that MeMe is a genius! Nothing phases her and she's getting good at her tricks, the only problem is she has taken to chewing on us (especially Ellen, and by the screams, I can tell it hurts :eek: ).

Regards,

Art S.

memmey

10-01-2007, 06:47 PM

I told you Sparky is in love with his grandmother. I told you that after he came back from staying there. Wasn't it Ellen's parents house he stayed at when ya'll were on vacation. Oh tell me it was Ellen's family. Spark poor baby.

ArtS

10-01-2007, 06:53 PM

Memmey,

Grandma has agreed to visit once a week and sometime in the near future, Sparky may go visit there for a while.

Regards,

Art S.

memmey

10-01-2007, 06:57 PM

Ohhhhh...little Sparky. It was his grandma. I could cry. Remember it got bad for him when he came home after being at her house, he just can't get a break. Art does she realize that he my have gotten attached to her?

ArtS

10-01-2007, 07:02 PM

Memmey,

It might also be the Prozac or reducing what he is able to see outside - at Grandma's he faced a quiet backyard which, at our house, is not an option.

However, there is definately something to the attachment thing, I think Grandma is attached to Sparky as well - so hopefully she will continue to be willing help in his recovery.

Regards,

Art S.

Pado

10-01-2007, 07:03 PM

Wow Art what an ordeal - You know after everything you and Ellen have done to try and remedy his issue I think it fitting he ended up on Prozac. I know there are those who scoff at medicating animals but what else can you possibly do? - Short of adding on the "In-law Bedroom" for Sparky's Grandmother :rolleyes: But its apparent Sparky has settled down some - Wouldn't it be great if he let his wings grow in now?

I had a phobic Senegal who did not like to be by the window - she would sit on the floor of her cage and only act normal when I took her out - it took a while to figure out the problem - I'm glad Ellen noticed Sparky's reaction to the passing cars.

Keep us posted on how he does -

I'm amazed with Meme's progress with the clicker training - and she's 8 years old AMAZING.

ArtS

10-01-2007, 07:12 PM

Pado,

Both the vet and the behaviorist are generally not in favor of drugs but both agreed in this case - It's just fortunate that the drugs are available!

Regards,

Art S.

Mustang99

10-01-2007, 07:29 PM

Art... you and Ellen take such good care of Sparky and have tried everything to help him. Glad to hear that grandma is going to make frequent visits -- you reach a point where meds are needed from time to time and if he's more relaxed, it's so much better than him panicking and hurting himself. good luck :)

ArtS

10-01-2007, 07:31 PM

Thanks,

At this point, we can use all the luck we can get!

Regards,

Art S.

Pado

10-01-2007, 07:39 PM

Before you know it - he and Meme will be playing Basketball (and keeping score :) ).

musicjan

10-01-2007, 07:50 PM

Art, best of luck to you and Ellen! I'm so glad that indeed Prozac is available for Sparky. I'm surprised that you and Ellen don't need to be on Prozac as well! My heart breaks for little Sparky. You two have been so diligent in trying to work this out. It seems to me that you've made some progress - I hope it continues! I'm glad you posted - I've been wondering about your absence.

ArtS

10-02-2007, 04:35 AM

Jan,

Thanks for your kind words.

Regards,

Art S.

marjet

10-06-2007, 10:17 AM

Art, I'm very sorry for all of you, things have been going that bad... How is Spark doin' on the Prozac (only now I understand a joke Pado made in another topic...)?
Are the visits of his grandmother cheering him up a bit?

Having a genius of a buddy (MeMe) must be very depressing though ;)
But in all honesty: I do respect and admire Ellen and your dedication to the little guy very much! Keep up the good work.

ArtS

11-04-2007, 09:46 PM

Today we had a bit of a breakthrough with Sparky. Ellen has taught Sharky how to ring a bell when he want's a treat! Sparky still has a lot of issues but he seems to have stabilized a bit (though he still bleeds at least once a week).

Regards,

Art S.

Sally

11-04-2007, 10:16 PM

Great news!! That is so wonderful!

musicjan

11-05-2007, 12:04 PM

Wow! A breakthrough is awesome! Any step in the right direction is one we like, huh? Congrats to you and especially to Ellen, who taught Sparky the trick!

Pado

11-05-2007, 05:07 PM

Art - thats great news that Sparky is taking to Clicker training - you guys must be thrilled. Tell Ellen for his next trick teach him to stop that bleeding ! :rolleyes: .. or at least to suture himself :p

musicjan

11-05-2007, 10:44 PM

Pado, you're so funny! I never would have thought of that as a trick. Let's hope Ellen has a sense of humor left! :-)

ArtS

11-07-2007, 10:41 PM

Hi everybody,

It's actually Ellen. For what it’s worth, I wanted to share my thoughts on what it's been like dealing with our little guys and all the trauma of late, as well as what our history was like prior to Sparky’s plucking. This is long.

Before Art and I purchased Sparky and MeMe in 1999, I had only ever owned parakeets. I had no clue what I was getting into with parrots. I just hoped we’d have two parakeet-sized birds that would be healthier than my two unfortunate parakeets that died from liver dysfunction.

I’d only ever owned single birds that were bonded to me like crazy, so when we got Sparky and MeMe together I assumed that they would be bonded to each other, not us. And that’s pretty much how it was. They didn’t show a tremendous interest in either of us. Only Sparky’s eyes ever approached anything like “pinpointing”. My perception was that Sparky’s and MeMe’s world was each other and they put up with us because we fed them (Art would disagree.)

I was aware of all the reasons given for why parrots pluck; boredom being the biggest. I assumed that because they ignored the pricey toys we bought for them they weren't interested in toys. Our vet’s suggestion that maybe I needed to teach them how to play sounded crazy. Teach a bird how to play?!@? My parakeets never needed to be taught how to play! Because Sparky and MeMe “played” with each other all day, I assumed they that they had all the stimulation they could handle.

But really, their interaction wasn’t very healthy. Sparky was obsessed with keeping MeMe close. He couldn’t stand to have her out of his sight. He looked to her for everything – what and when to eat, where to sit on the cage, where to fly in the room, like he didn’t have an original thought.

All the while, he was downright adorable, lively, comical and entertaining. In comparison, MeMe was uninteresting – a “dud”. When Sparky eventually “handicapped” himself, it became apparent how much energy MeMe had to put into fending off his overwhelming attention. Now she was freed-up enough to let her personality come out. It was amazing to watch her blossom.

I thought that training was just for birds at theme parks or on television. I never thought it would be something our guys would want to do. I didn’t realize that it was a sort of mental stimulation that needed to be provided to them. It wasn’t until Sparky hit rock bottom that we were lucky enough to be forced into attempting to train them – and at first, it was only with MeMe, because Sparky was in no condition.

Art has shared some of MeMe’s progress with you. For the last month and a half, it has been a joy to watch her learn and take to training like nobody’s business (or is it the millet?). It has been equally hard to watch Sparky just sort of survive. It was only a pipe dream that Sparky might be capable of training.

From the beginning, his dose of Prozac has been followed by a “reward” of millet, offered from my fingers - through the bars (the behaviorist’s suggestion). Usually, it helps to snap him out of the state of post-dosing “shell-shock”.

I have conducted MeMe’s training in front of their shared cage (a no-no according to some training books I’ve read) so that he could watch her and perhaps be inspired.

About a week ago, I hung a little silver bell on the outside of his cage at the place he likes to eat millet. Each time, before I’d give him a nibble, I would flick the bell and say, “ring the bell, Sparky.” This went on for a couple of days. It was an accomplishment simply that he wasn’t afraid of the bell.

Last Friday, I hung the bell inside the cage and repeated the same routine. At one point I waited until he made contact with the bell. You couldn’t call it “ringing” the bell. He just sort of shoved it aside with his beak so he could get to the millet. But I thought this was huge and cause for major celebration. By the end of the session, he was reliably “shoving” the bell aside. On Saturday, I upped the ante, so that he had to shove that bell with purpose, not just by accident. Sunday was more of the same and he was showing discernable enthusiasm for the routine. On Tuesday morning, I raised the height of the bell, so that it didn’t just happen to be at beak-height – he had to reach for it. Sparky met the challenge. In fact, he was ringing the bell with downright gusto!

This morning, I uncovered the cage to find him out from under his sleepy-towel (highly untypical) and sitting on the other perch, next to his bell! I almost fell over laughing. And when I came home tonight, he was still awake and cheeping, eager to get to the training…or millet fest, or whatever you want to call it.

This is progress.

I really underestimated these little guys’ needs as well as their potential and complexity. Even until this recent turn of events with Sparky, I was underestimating him! I figured that MeMe was the smart one and Sparky was a little, uh, slow. Maybe Sparky’s hyper-activity came from an active mind with no means of expression.

One of the other theories about why parrots pluck is because they are taken away from parent birds so quickly in order to make them better socialized with humans. It sure seems Sparky could have used more life-skills from his parents and lessons in how to deal with change. Probably the same goes for MeMe, but she is a tough nut. Sparky is really sensitive. They are what they are. And now, I’m having a blast playing with/training them and finding out things about them I never could have imagined. They sure seem to be enjoying it.

Regards,
Ellen

LyndaM

11-07-2007, 11:03 PM

Wow Ellen, that was an amazing post; thanks so much for sharing! I just got a male pair a month ago and can see so many similarities in your description of their relationship. You have inspired me to start clicker training sooner rather than later!

memmey

11-08-2007, 12:32 AM

Ellen. Bitsey Jo has a bell and it ishow she communicates with me. If she wants to get up in the morning she rings the bell. If she wants me to come get her when I'm in another room, she rings the bell. If my friends come over and they don't acknowledge her she rings the bell. I didn't teach her that she just did it. She trained me...lol
I'm so proud for little Sparky and The Meme. Congratulations the hard work is paying off. You have never given up hope for your little man Sparky. He has a very good Mom.
I guess I need to compliment his Dad........nah..............lol

Pado

11-08-2007, 02:28 PM

Ellen - I'm elated at the success you've had with both Meme and Sparky's training - Thank you for sharing it with us. I'm quite interested in clicker training but have not taken the plunge yet - as inspiring as your post was I think you may have tipped the scale for me - It sounds like this is a very stimulating (brain) exercise for them and one I think my birds would enjoy.

One of my birds became a bit "plump" recently so I started a flying exercise with them. I take them to the front door and they fly back to their cage (about 50 -55ft). This is something they now relish and are always eager and willing to do - we're now up to 15 laps :) So I think when the weight is back to its normal range the clicker training may be a nice addition to their routine.

I'm very happy to hear how Sparky is doing - as you said Sparky being a sensitive soul may have developed this obsession with MeMe to compensate for his insecurities by fixating on her - sounds like that has been a BIG stressful job for him. I think you are on to something with the theory about chicks being hand-raised and missing out on the crucial socialization skills they need to learn from their parents. I'm sure a lot of pet Parrot insecurities come from this - especially, as you mentioned the more sensitive ones.

This along with them not being allowed to fledge in order to tame them further has detrimental effects on them. There is a window of time in their development when they need to learn these skills. When that window is closed it may be a lifelong struggle for them to try and gain that lost knowledge. I hope more and more breeders begin to understand this and adjust their practices.

There was a member on the forum, Andrea - who has talked about this in the past - she recommends breeders share the hand-rearing duties with the parent birds -thus- allowing the parents to teach the birds how to be birds and not be falsely imprinted on humans. Unfortunately most people want that human imprinted baby but I don't think most take into account that baby bird will grow into a sexually mature adult one day. Although I don't know how well co-parenting will work with Parrotlets as most of what I've read says Parrotlet parents tend to abandon their chicks if their nest-box is disturbed too often - maybe breeders could to tame the Parrotlet Chicks after the Parents wean them - who knows?

Anyhow, sorry for getting off track and going off into a different direction - I tend to do that :o -

ArtS

11-08-2007, 09:45 PM

One minor point...Ellen stopped using the clicker in the training process because she found it cumbersome. The training seems to work just fine without it - just as long as millet is present ;) .

According Ellen, the key is praise and reward.

Regards,

Art S.

catfish

11-09-2007, 12:58 AM

This makes me very happy~ maybe i'll try this in the near future.

Pado

11-09-2007, 03:31 PM

Art or Ellen - is it worth getting the book as a guide?

Instead of a clicker - I think I'll "cluck" (you know, when you click your tongue off the roof of your mouth) :D :D

ArtS

11-09-2007, 08:31 PM

Hi, Ellen again.

The behaviorist recommended several, as well as videos (can't locate the list right now....) The two I'm using are:

Clicker Training for Birds - Getting Started by Melinda Johnson
Sunshine Books, Inc.

Parrot Tricks - Teaching Parrots with Positive Reinforcement by Tani Robar & Diane Grindol
Howell Book House

Got them both on Amazon. I like the approach of both and they're very respectful of birds. The second one goes a little more in-depth. Not all the "tricks" are suitable for Sparky and MeMe because many build on gestures that (in my experience) our guys just don't make, like hold things with their feet or wave them, or turn around, etc. But the principles are good and you get the idea.

I sort of jumped in without reading each cover-to-cover first, as I probably should have. I'm sure I'm making lots of mistakes, like letting MeMe fling things, instead picking them up and placing them down, (also, not having a special training stand, not doing it in a separate room, etc.) But I thought it was cute and now she's very naughty. I could be a little more firm....And I don't have a lot of "routines" in the repertoire. I'm afraid I may be boring them both, at this point.

The millet fest tonight consisted of "Dueling Bells". It does break the rules to train two at the same time, not give complete attention to one, let them pig out, etc., etc.,.....but I kinda feel like we've been dealing with a desperate situation with Sparky and whatever works to get him engaged in an activity is worth it. (I've been relying on my instincts and getting support from the behaviorist in this regard.) I hung MeMe's bell on the outside of Sparky's cage next to where his bell is hung and he was definitely inspired. It was almost like he was normal again.

It sounds like a lot of you guys are ahead of the game, because you're playing with your beasts and they like to interact with you, and they're already doing "training"-type stuff, so it would be an easy transition to "structure" it a little. Both books stress being prepared, planning, breaking the routine(s) down into very small increments, so you can shape their natural behavior, know what to expect and not confuse them.

They're worth reading, no matter what you decide to do. One uses the clicker, one doesn't. The clicker I got at PetSmart was really loud. MeMe (the tough nut) was okay with that, but I didn't want to freak out the sensitive boy....You can use a ball point pen or “cluck”, like you were suggesting, as long as it's consistent. Or not use one at all. Whatever works.

Ellen

Pado

11-09-2007, 08:42 PM

Thanks Ellen -

I'm afraid I may be boring them both, at this point. This was was a thought I had when thinking about clicker training - I can see this happening with my guys from past experience with things they liked doing and now have no interest in.

And I know I would break that doing it alone rule also - I would have to incorporate both of them at the same time. Personally I just don't like to separate them. :)

But its good to know the books would be worth reading anyhow - Please keep us posted on their progress - we never get bored of hearing about birds here :p

ArtS

02-04-2008, 04:52 PM

Just a quick update to those members that had previously been following this thread:

About a month ago we took Sparky off Prozac as the trauma of catching him and force feeding him the medicine was taking its toll on both Ellen (my wife) and Sparky. For about a month, he was pretty bad - VERY skittish and easily upset but he has slowly come around, even without the meds. Although he still freaks out regularly, usually resulting in torn skin, torn feathers and significant bleeding - he seems to be improving.

About a week ago, he let Ellen give him 'skritches' for the first time! He was in his sleeping area and Ellen scratched his head through the cage bars for about half an hour. He has let her repeat this almost every day since! This may seem insignificant to most of you but considering the mental and physical state of the bird, we think it's huge!

We have also decided to take Sparky in for a second opinion and also (almost certainly) to be fitted with an Elizabethan collar to keep him from plucking. There is a decent chance that he will go off the deep end mentally or simply die but we have decided the risk is worth it considering his quality of life.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. I don't remember their hatch dates but our birds are just about 9 years old now.

PPS. MeMe is as indominatable as ever - she really has become a wonderful bird now that she is out from under Sparky's shadow.

Pado

02-04-2008, 08:07 PM

Wow - Art thanks for the update - I for one was curious how things were going.

I have a question I was curious about. I'll make it as PG13 as I can :eek:
Even though Sparky and Meme are brother and sister (I'm not sure if they know that or not - I've read siblings are supposed to sense this) do or did they mate?

LyndaM

02-04-2008, 08:50 PM

About a week ago, he let Ellen give him 'skritches' for the first time! He was in his sleeping area and Ellen scratched his head through the cage bars for about half an hour. He has let her repeat this almost every day since! This may seem insignificant to most of you but considering the mental and physical state of the bird, we think it's huge!

Art, thanks so much for the update! I think the skritches are hugely significant -- my guy won't let me skritch him like that, so especially given his history, that's major progress! Keep us posted on what the vet says. I'm especially interested because I have a mini hahn's macaw that self-barbers as well. Good luck!

ArtS

02-04-2008, 10:44 PM

Pado,

When they were younger, MeMe was interested in the idea but it seemed like Sparky couldn't figure out what to do - this might have something to do with why he started plucking.

They have been kept separated (the plexiglas divider is in) since Sparky lost the ability to fly. MeMe is allowed supervized visits but we don't want to risk leaving them alone due to Sparky's condition.

Interestingly enough, they seem to show less interest in each other than they used to. MeMe seems equally interested in hanging out with us.

Lynda,

I'll keep you posted. Since the proceedures are elective, we're holding off until the weather warms up a bit.

Regards,

Art S.

lily

02-04-2008, 11:28 PM

Art, I don't know if I mentioned it on this forum, but I think I read somewhere that a vitamin E deficiency can result in skin that tears easily. I don't know if a vet can check for a vitamin E deficiency. I'll try to figure out where I saw that. I did see an article where someone with a self-mutilating bird used vitamin E on its skin, and the bird's skin healed. Whenever it started chewing at itself, she would just rub some vitamin E on it and apparently the bird would ingest some. She felt that vitamin E controlled the problem. I'll try to find that article too, to see if the bird also quit plucking.

ArtS

02-04-2008, 11:31 PM

Thanks Lily!! I look forward to hearing what you find.

lily

02-05-2008, 12:33 AM

I think these were two of the articles:

http://quikonnex.com/channel/item/7117

http://www.parrotchronicles.com/fall2001/feature-jump2.htm

And this article is a real eye-opener! Maybe nutrition is the answer:
http://www.holisticbirds.com/pages/dietfeather0801.htm

lily

02-05-2008, 08:00 PM

Vitamin A deficiency is the most common nutritional deficiency in birds, and it is essential for healthy skin. Perhaps the reason vitamin E shows up in these cures is because it works with vitamin A. Also, the liver stores the bird's vitamin A. If there is any reason that the liver is not functioning properly or is overwhelmed, the body might not get its vitamin A. The liver can be damaged with toxins-- even inhaled ones-- and not everyone has the same capacity to detox.

ArtS

02-08-2008, 07:48 PM

Thanks Lily,

We will bring this up when we bring him to the vet. However, I'm curious, would one bird be this badly effected while the other bird, living in identical conditions show no issues?

Regards,

Art S.

lily

02-09-2008, 12:24 AM

I know. It seems crazy that the two birds are so different. But sometimes one human sibling will have asthma, for example, and the other won't-- each being is different, and the personalities are different. Unless they are on a pellets only diet, Sparky would have opportunities to choose foods that are different from MeMe's choices. Maybe he has a allergy to something, or maybe he somehow picked up a parasite.

You may have hit the nail on the head when you suggested that his relationship with MeMe may be a problem. The stress could be exactly what pushed him over the edge. Stress in any form uses up nutrients.

I can't even imagine how terrible it must be, trying to keep Sparky going and trying to figure out the cause of his problems. He is very lucky ot have you.

ArtS

02-09-2008, 02:18 PM

Lily,

I agree with your thoughts on the differences.

Yes, his condition really gets to us. The worst is that when he is hurting (usually accompanied with bleeding), unlike most birds, he cries out in pain - this is like a knife through my and my wifes hearts. It is a very distinct sound and only accociated when he is clearly scared and in pain.

The funny thing is, in another thread, someone is shopping based on the purchase price of the bird. It is amazing how much we as owners are willing to spend on these 'cheap' aquisitions once we are bonded to them...

Regards,

Art S.

lily

02-10-2008, 12:31 PM

Not just the expense--- all the space they take up for a one ounce pet! And time!

Are you familiar with Rescue Remedy? It is a Bach Flower Remedy, completely non-toxic, no side effects, and safe for any living thing from bugs to elephants, plants and people. It is used during and after a crisis or any upsetting event or situation, and it really helps. I have used it extensively with animals, even wild ones. It can be put right in their water. The usual dilution is four drops of the rmeday into one ounce of pure (not distilled) water to make up the bottle; then four drops of that as your dose. For people, brandy (or organic vinegar) is added to the dose bottle as a preservative, but I keep it in the refrigerator instead. Four drops in my bird's water dish would be fine for her-- her dish probably holds 1/4 C of water. The size of the dose is not critical. In an emergency, the drops can be used every several minutes, as needed.

LyndaM

02-10-2008, 02:09 PM

Art, believe it or not, out here in the land of Dorothy, I just located this AMAZING avian vet who specializes in feather picking disorders. She is unlike any vet I have ever met which says a lot since I also have lived in NJ and NYC. As one of its foremost researchers, she is extremely informed & knowledgeable on these disorders. Unfortunately, at this time there are not many researchers due to lack of funding. People come from all over to see her; actually most of her clientele flies in from the East and West Coasts to spend a week here while she tests and has their birds under observation.

If you or your wife were interested in calling her, please let me know and I will pass on her info. Honestly, I can't recommend her highly enough, and I am extremely discriminating. She is extremely no-nonsense and straight from the hip. She also is not into all the herbal mumbo jumbo that you read on the internet, believing much of it to be false testimony and harmful to the birds in that it can throw them out of balance even further. So, if you do decide to call her, be forewarned that she is a pure scientist/doctor and won't send you off with a bunch of so called quick fix creams and sprays. Just let me know!

ArtS

02-11-2008, 01:39 PM

Lily,

We've tried rescue remedy. It didn't seem to have an effect. That said, I leave this kind of stuff to my wife and I'll pass it along.

Lynda.

I may take you up on your offer but, first we will be visiting one (or two) other avian vets in PA. I'll reach out to you if nothing becomes of these visits.

Oh, by the way, Sparky has been eating like mad and has a bunch of wing feathers coming in. I generally don't get my hopes up, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he leaves them in.

Regards,

Art S.

LyndaM

02-11-2008, 05:25 PM

That's awesome, Art! Yes, do let me know if/when you'd like her info. Our new hahn's macaw (a plucker) has become a new patient. and so far I am extremely impressed at her breadth of knowledge and the caring she displays for her patients. I mean, she talked to me for an hour and a half during our initial exam and only charged me her normal fee! She has a strong view that feather plucking is a symptom, not the disorder itself, and that she is going to unlock & solve each particular bird's puzzle.

ArtS

02-14-2008, 04:20 PM

Thanks Lynda!

We are scheduled to see the second vet tomorrow. I'm hopeful but not hlding my breath.

Regards,

Art S.

LyndaM

02-14-2008, 06:26 PM

Let us know how it goes! Good luck!

ArtS

03-26-2008, 08:19 PM

Sparky died today.

Pado

03-26-2008, 08:27 PM

Art I am so sorry to hear about Sparky - I'm shocked - I never expected this. Please extend my condolences to Ellen - I hope MeMe and the both of you get through this okay. I'm not sure what to say.

lineola

03-26-2008, 10:12 PM

Poor birdie!! He was sick for over a month? This is such sad news. So sorry you lost your little friend.

Maddie

catfish

03-26-2008, 11:26 PM

ArtS I'm so very sorry! This is horrible news! :(

aby

03-27-2008, 12:00 AM

I'm so sorry Art! My thoughts are with you, and {{{Hugs}}} your way.

Aby

Sally

03-27-2008, 12:08 AM

Art, I am so very sorry you lost Sparky! SO sorry.

raiven

03-27-2008, 04:12 AM

So sorry for your loss. My thoughts are with you.

cute_lil_fiend

03-27-2008, 04:30 AM

I'm so sorry that you lost Sparky. I'm sure he was well-loved during his lifetime and you did the best you could.

Pado

03-27-2008, 03:08 PM

Art you guys were on my mind last night while I was with the birds - How are things?

YWallpaper

03-27-2008, 04:05 PM

Oh no! I am so sorry. Was he sick, apart from his feather issues?

LucyP

03-27-2008, 05:17 PM

Poor sparky... hope you are doing ok

LyndaM

03-28-2008, 01:10 AM

Art, I am just now reading this in shock. I am so sorry! :(

birdiemom

03-28-2008, 01:15 PM

So sorry for your loss.

musicjan

03-29-2008, 01:37 PM

Art and Ellen, I'm just so sorry. I saw this thread and opened it expecting an update on progress with the plucking. I'm sure that's what you would have preferred to write. When you have the energy, we would all appreciate knowing what happened - if you even want to re-live it. Loss is always so hard. You've had Sparky for so long - 8 years, I believe? Bitsy and I just can't find words to tell you all how sorry we are!

Py & Cosmo

03-31-2008, 08:08 PM

I am so very sorry for your loss - my thought are with you all.

musicjan

04-01-2008, 12:28 AM

Wondering how you 3 are doing. I've thought of you often.

ArtS

04-02-2008, 06:38 PM

I would like to thank everyone for their kind thoughts and words.

Sparky’s loss has been rather difficult on us. He was 9 years old when he died on the afternoon of Wednesday, March 26, 2008. He had been with us since he was weaned. MeMe seems to be dealing with the loss better than Ellen and me and has been particularly sweet, especially to Ellen.

Sparky died as a result of a series of events:

Sparky’s plucking was getting worse (he was causing himself to bleed almost daily) but he had become less skittish so we decided to put a body sock on him. This had been recommended over a collar by Dr. Clark, a well regarded avian vet in Quakertown, PA. My wife purchased a ‘sockbuddy’ bodysuit on the net that was custom made for Sparky.

Since we were reluctant to put it on him, along with concerns about Sparky’s reaction to it, we decided to have our vet put it on and to have Sparky kept overnight for observation. Ellen brought him to Dr. McKinley, our regular avian vet (the one that successfully operated on MeMe’s eyelid) for the procedure. It quickly became apparent that the bodysuit was too big so they could not proceed.

Dr. McKinley, suggested that he put a collar on Sparky as he had quite a bit of success with them and never lost a bird due to a collar.

Ellen agreed and I supported this decision. Sparky, while definitely not enjoying the collar and rolling around a bit, reacted as well or better than many birds to the collar (according to Dr. McKinley). Sparky was kept overnight for observation and was observed eating and drinking and was able to hop onto a low perch. With this, Dr. McKinley recommended that we take him home.

I arrived at Dr. McKinley’s office late in the morning on Wednesday and Sparky was put into his travel cage. He didn’t do well there. He seemed panicked and tended to step on his collar, which would either make him roll or pin his head to the floor. I had second thoughts on both keeping the collar and on taking him home (I thought a few more days of observation might be useful). Dr. McKinley said that he felt the towels on the bottom of his cage were the problem and that a more stable floor would be more suitable for him in the near term. Thus we put Sparky in a small cardboard box for the trip home, to which he protested only slightly.

Ellen met me at home, and we set up Sparky’s cage to accommodate his new ‘condition.’ I decided not to remove the towels on the bottom of his cage as these were set up to be much firmer than the travel cage’s towels and Sparky was able to stand relatively well on them. We put food and water dishes on the bottom of his cage and kept an eye on him. During this time, he came over to the front of the cage and I was able to scratch his head and feed him some millet (nothing can withstand the power of millet). After this, I was comfortable enough with the situation to go back to work. Ellen stayed with him a little longer, observing him and talking to him. At one point, he fell into one of the dishes (which was 3 inches by 5 inches by about ¾ inches high with about ¼ inch of water in it). He got himself out quickly, so Ellen also felt the situation was OK. Ellen left for work a little after 1:00PM.

She returned from work a little after 5:00PM and Sparky was dead, on his back in the water dish. His body was wet but his head was dry, so he did not drown.

I believe that he stumbled back into the dish, panicked, stepped onto his collar and pinned himself. This then either led to a heat attack (which I doubt) or he died of hypothermia from heat loss from sitting in the water (if this is the case, he just went to sleep).

We buried Sparky in Ellen’s mother’s flower garden, surrounded by roses, in a very well made cigar box, wrapped in his sleeping blanket with a sprig of millet and his favorite silver bell.

Art S.