pellets vs seed, discussion among vets

[catfish]

I'm utilizing a website database (www.vin.com (http://www.vin.com)) I was given access to through my vet. I was told not to post, but I could research all I want. I found this conversation on the message boards talking about p'lets and a pellet diet.

It's kind of interesting. Ive deleted all the names and contacts so i don't get my friend in trouble.

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i have been told that Parrotlet mutations (blues,yellows,whites) must be fed a seed diet ,as they are not able to process a protein diet. Would appreciate any feed back.
Thanks
(deleted)
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(deleted) on 05/02/2005 1:44:54 pm ET
Those parrotlet breeders are an interesting bunch and this is total crap. Where pray tell are they thinking protein for biological function, feathers and eggs is coming from when they give out such bad advice?
Protein deficiencies are only one of the many items you get with a seed diet.
In the west the breeders always seem to tell their "customers" to tell the veterinarian to run a Zn test when in fact they should be working more closely with their own veterinarian to address the very common Avian Gastric Yeast problem that will kill (post-purchase) if undetected in a timely manner.
--
(deleted) DVM, DABVP-Avian
Bird Doctor
California Avian Lab

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(deleted) on 05/04/2005 12:26:11 pm ET
There IS that renal tubular nephrosis that can be seen in mutation parrotlets, as is seen in cockatiels. This concern, however, does not justify a recommendation to avoid all formulated diets in all parrotlets.
In reality, however, that syndrome probably has NOTHING to do with protein - that, as Alan mentioned, is more urban legend, not fact.
And the zinc thing - was merely another internet amplification of fear of zinc, based on incorrect application and interpretation of blood testing of these birds - then applying it inappropriatelly to ALL parrotlets out of context of any base of common sense or reality.

(deleted), DVM
Diplomate, ABVP, ECAMS
Certified in avian practice

[catfish]

(Deleted) on 10/24/2002 11:47:57 am ET
I have a client that has a new parrotlet, and 4 month old male.
He appears very healthy on a physical exam, stools negative, gram stain normal. I convinced the owner that we need to change the diet from seed to pellets, which she was able to do very easily, except now she's talked to the breeder again, who has stated quite emphatically that they need a high fat diet which only a seed diet can provide. Of course she can not produce any medical research to back this up, and of course, as I'm only a vet, it's up to me to disprove the worthiness of her claim - am I venting here?????
Your imput would be greatly appreciated.
Thanx,
(Deleted), B.V.Sc.



(Deleted)on 10/24/2002 1:04:14 pm ET
Craig- 2nd opinion from breeders are nothing new since the beginning of veterinary medicine. Many psittacines have a higher fat diet in the wild but the breeder is ignorant about basic nutritition. The seed diet provides way too much fat for captive cage bird, no essential amino acids, no Ca, no Zinc (yes Zn is a trace nutritient), no Vit A, no Vit K, No Vit D3 etc. And IME over the years, "vitamin enriched seed" doesn't deliver.
I've experienced parrotlet owners whose breeder insisted on a zinc assay (we have to carefully chose our blood tests in such a small patient) when in fact the problem from this breeder continues to be avian gastric yeast.
Tell the owner that we have learned much over the years on why birds die prematurely and malnutrition is a leading contributing etiology.
Attached is one image from a powerpoint presentation for clients; a 5 yr female tiel submitted for necropsy to my lab- histo dx hepatic lipidosis.
--
(Deleted) DVM, DABVP-Avian
Avian Medical Center of Sacramento
California Avian Laboratory



(Deleted) on 10/24/2002 1:05:24 pm ET
another try
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(Deleted)DVM, DABVP-Avian
Avian Medical Center of Sacramento
California Avian Laboratory



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(Deleted) on 10/24/2002 1:25:02 pm ET
(Deleted),
Just to add to what Alan already eloquently wrote, here is exactly what we do know that seed diets are deficient in:
EXCESSIVE FAT, DEFICIENT PROTEIN, DEFICIENT IN 22 VITAMINS AND MINERALS
Vits: A, D, E, K, B2, B12, pantothenic acid, niacin, biotin, choline
Minerals: Ca, I, Fe, Cu, Mn, Se, Na, Zn
Amino acids: lys, met, trp, arg
Hopefully this will supply you with enough information to convince your client to trust you and not the breeder. Good luck.
(Deleted)

(Deleted) VMD
Resident - Special Species Medicine
University of (Deleted)

(Deleted) on 10/24/2002 1:28:26 pm ET
Parrotlets DO need quite a bit of energy, if they lead an active pet lifestyle out of their cages often and sharing their lives with their owners. In my experience here, the reality of what seems to suit the species best,in this type of setting, is a mixture of seed / pellets / veggies. The diet can vary from one extreme to the other on a day-to day basis. All of one or the other, realistically, can be potentially harmful.
So: I would agree, somewhat with the breeder's thoughts about the need for energy that may not necessarily be always provided by an exclusively pellet diet. However, the excess of the same in the generic seed can be equally problematic. I'd also agree with your recommendation to broaden the dietary horizon of the patient before you properly as you have done.
What is best for the patient? The answer of this question comes from those annual examinations, where you and your client balance and maintain optimal health through altered diet,management, and laboratory screening as you both see is fit. Emphasize this reality to your client,explain the reasons why there are strong opinions on either side of the fence, and point out the reason why they are so strong. Also, point out that neither of those strong opinions are based on an annual examination, fine-tuned preventative health program - which is the most logical form of medicine - - in my opinion. (Deleted), DVM
Diplomate, ABVP, ECAMS
Certified in avian practice

[catfish]

(delete)on 02/08/2005 10:32:41 am ET
I have an owner with a quaker parrot and she feeds almost 100% table food (mostly vegetables). She has tried adding pellets to the diet but the bird won't eat them readily. She has sent me a list of the foods that she is feeding and is wondering if adequate or if additional vitamins, food sources should be added.
a.m.: 1/8-1/4 cup hulled oat + 1 tsp seed mix (no sunflower seeds). She adds some pellets but bird usually tosses out of cage. Mix of 1 tblspn 8 bean mixture (adjuki,lima,black,mung,lima,lentils,garbanzo,kidn ey), 1 tsp steamed coucous/quinoa/brown rice mixture, sometimes 1 tsp boiled egg (but not good about eating it), broccoli, romaine, birdie bread with Harrison's pellets baked in (unsure how much pellets he actually consumes).
lunch: Some kale, 1 tsp carrots, broccoli slaw mix, steamed sweet potato, tomatoes, maybe tsp cottage cheese of nonfat yogurt, zucchini, or summer squash, cabbage, birdie bread, and maybe some of the bean mix or what ever was a big success in the am.
supper: perhaps some spring mix greens, corn, radish, part of dried fig, and any combo of the above foods.
Treats: Nutriberries, Avicakes, plain popped corn, piece of 7 grain bread crush plain or with peanut butter.
Wondered also how often hemp seed should be feed as her birds love it but doesn't want to give too much. Thank you for any information.
K.
(delete) on 02/08/2005 10:56:10 am ET
>>>100% table food <<<
think "table scraps" and the dog- table food based diet is inherently imbalanced
>>> a.m.: 1/8-1/4 cup hulled oat + 1 tsp seed mix (no sunflower seeds). She adds some pellets but bird usually tosses out of cage. Mix of 1 tblspn 8 bean mixture <<<
Virtually all carbos, a little essential AAs and NO other important nutrients
>>> 1 tsp boiled egg (but not good about eating it), broccoli, romaine, birdie bread with Harrison's pellets baked in (unsure how much pellets he actually consumes) <<<
let me bet that the "birdie bread is a big item consumed- more carbo
>>> Some kale, 1 tsp carrots, broccoli slaw mix, steamed sweet potato, tomatoes, maybe tsp cottage cheese of nonfat yogurt, zucchini, or summer squash, cabbage, birdie bread, and maybe some of the bean mix or what ever was a big success in the am.
supper: perhaps some spring mix greens, corn, radish, part of dried fig, and any combo of the above foods.<<<
likely that bird is eating mostly the starchy stuff here also
>>> Nutriberries, Avicakes, plain popped corn, piece of 7 grain bread crush plain or with peanut butter.
<<<
More fat and carbo. I have always been underwhelmed with outcomes of avicake/nutriberry predominant diet- the rest on the line is no help either.
This client obviously has a lot of free time. With your guidance to convert to mostly HBD and make all this other stuff be less than 20% of calories consumed, the bird will be much better off in the long run.
If you did a site visit and careful interview I bet that the actual consumption would be much less impressive.
Lipidosis is quite common in this species as seen through my lab (this species is illeagal in CA- so we don't see many)
--
(delete) DVM, DABVP-Avian
Bird Doctor

(delete) on 02/09/2005 3:52:17 pm ET
For me, working with the caretaker and their abilities and desires, and the animal’s abilities and habits, makes the whole process work better. Instead of trying to get the bird onto a straight pellet diet, work with the owner’s plan. Certainly, Quakers can thrive on appropriate home prepared diet, and maybe it would work better for this caretaker?
Quaker parrots are, by nature, major seed and grain eaters. Last week I saw a 27 year old Quaker that has never eaten anything but seed. That is not my favorite diet, but, seeds are fine for these birds, just the correct amount.
I don’t see a lot of fat in the diet, so that is probably not a problem. There are probably a bit too many carbohydrates and not enough protein. BUT, none of this is clear because the bird is far too small to be eating everything they say he/she is eating. There is just too much in the mix to know what is really being eaten.
Maybe get her to feed some seeds, including some (not a lot) of high fat seeds such as sunnies or safflower… these are also higher protein seeds. Have the owner feed the veggie mix once a day and only a teaspoon at a feeding. The bird bread is not helpful. Feed the bean mix only once or so a week. A bird of this size needs only a very small amount of Avicakes, not even one square. Then a few HBD pellets to round out the edges and to allow the caretaker to feel like the bird is not going to starve. Have her feed twice daily instead of three times daily, and have her feed a nutritious treat at lunch, since she wants too feed something at lunch anyway (e.g. a slice of apple?).
In total, what is being fed is so vastly more than the bird can eat, that we have no idea what the bird is eating, and thus no idea if the bird is on a high fat diet, low fat diet, high carbohydrate diet, low protein diet, or high protein diet. This bird may actually be on a great diet… but who would know? Talk to the caretaker about how much a small bird really needs and how important it is to have periods of time throughout the day when the bird is fasting… fasting means detoxification which means over all improved health.


(delete)on 02/09/2005 6:52:58 pm ET

I have to disagree with some of the things you've written here. :-)
>>> Quaker parrots are, by nature, major seed and grain eaters. <<<
No bird is, by nature, a major seed or grain eater. They might prefer seed and grain, but it is not a natural diet. That is like saying that man, by nature, is a major McDonald's and Coca Cola eater. Seed & grain (like McDonald's) is a high fat food, and therefore eaten preferably as an energy source. Wild parrots, not given access to man-made crops, consume a wide variety of foods. Ripened, high fat seeds are NOT a normal part of their life.
>>> Last week I saw a 27 year old Quaker that has never eaten anything but seed. <<<
And I met a 92 year old ex-soldier who drank 2-3 bottles of sherry a week. Just because it doesn't kill you doesn't mean it's good for you! :-)
>>> seeds are fine for these birds, just the correct amount <<<
If they don't kill them...
>>> Maybe get her to feed some seeds, including some (not a lot) of high fat seeds such as sunnies or safflower… these are also higher protein seeds. <<<
50% fat is a little too much fat, especially when in isolation. And although the protein is a little higher, the amino acid make up is inappropriate for birds when fed as a sole diet. So while some seeds are OK (they are a good source of Vit E), they can easily become a problem when the bird eats them preferentially to other foods. I think we agree that seed can be included in a healthy diet, but in small amounts only. I strongly disagree with the >>> major seed and grain eaters <<< comment.
I agree with feeding twice daily, but the fasting thing I can't come at. Birds' higher metabolic rate (other than some raptors) demands a constant intake of food. Parrots utilise their crop for this reason - they fill it up in the morning, and then 'trickle feed' it into the proventriculus during the middle of the day. They then repeat this in the afternoon. Feeding twice daily replicates this normal behviour. They are NOT fasting. Finches & other birds lacking a crop, on the other hand, must feed continuously through the day because of their inability to 'trickle feed'.
I think people food can be utilised to successfully feed a bird. My personal recommendation is to feed 60% good quality formulated diet, and 40% vegetables. Some specis like fruit, some seem to need it. But they don't get much - no more than 5%.
As to quantities fed, I agree with you totally.
(delete)BVSc FACVSc (Avian Health)


(delete) on 02/09/2005 8:47:23 pm ET
From Juniper and Parr:
The Monk parakeet includes a wide range of wild and cultivated seeds, fruits and vegetable matter including grass seeds and grain, cactus stems, root vegetables and tree fruits, sometimes also insects and their larvae.
This species feeds in trees and on the ground, in flocks of same species or mixed flocks of other birds such as pigeons and/or cowbirds.

(delete), DVM
Diplomate, ABVP, ECAMS
Certified in avian practice

(delete) on 02/11/2005 8:20:17 pm ET

It seems likely that there is less difference in our opinions that one might think.
What do you mean by "major seed eater" vs. what I mean, for example? I roughly rank psittacine birds, by species, as predominantly seed eaters, major seed eaters, minor seed eaters, occasional and non-seed eating. That helps me decide what to recommend how a bird is fed. I think that this bird is a major seed and grain eater, no different than a red-winged black bird in our area. I have done post mortem exams on approximately 40 red-wing blackbirds over the years (various times of the season) and they have seeds and grains in their GI system predominately. Yes, there are other things eaten, but 75% of their diet is seeds and grains. I think Quaker parrots likely consume 75% seed and grains in a natural situation. This is, of course, a guess, but a workable premise none the less.
At the same time, I understand and agree with Brian's comment on what this bird eats and what you said about high fat seeds. It has been a while, but the last time I evaluated the nutritional content of a sunflower seed, it had 8 times the protein content of a millet seed; thus the comment that they are higher in protein. I like to feed sunnies since they are a good source of fat and protein, but not too many in a day… perhaps 6 for a Quaker each day.
Since HBD pellets are predominately seeds and grains (measered as a percent make-up of the caloric intake), and since I believe you like feeding HBD diets to birds, I don't see any major difference between us :).
Moving on to the fasting concept, again, looking at the large number of wild birds I have necropsied (yes, many of them were sick, and thus unable to feed), I am certain that birds that have crops do NOT keep them full all the time. I think a crop does produce a trickle feeding, but is more designed to allow a bird to eat a lot quickly and then return to the safety of the tree and process the food. Birds do fast between meals and then hunger develops. Hunger does not develop when the crop is first empty. Now at the same time, I agree that this “fast” is only relative as compared to many mammals.
But, I don't talk about fasting with the intent of getting people to fast birds; I only mention it as an analogy that people can use to understand that the bird does not need an eternally full seed cup. I give them a reason to allow themselves to feed birds in a way that encourages the bird to eat variety. And I do recommend that they have some food (foods that are not highly palatable to the individual bird in question, yet nutritious… say HBD pellets) item available most all the time. However, I believe birds do not need a constant intake of food due to their metabolism. Perhaps we are going to have to differ on this, since I believe this thinking makes for obese birds.
I think the biggest difference is that I don’t feed 60% pellets. I believe strongly in the concept that unprocessed foods or minimally processed foods are best and that the pellets make up a minimal part of the diet. This does place more responsibility on the caretaker and on my invested time in keeping the diet balanced… but a client like the one we are discussing us not likely to feed your way anyway (which is fine as well, of course). Instead it is more likely that you can moderate what they are doing, which was my main point. Instead of saying they have too much time on their hands, I think it is more effective to praise their efforts and guide them into the right direction. My emphasis with clients is more towards fresh foods and less towards commercial diets.
Good discussion, Bob, and thanks for the thoughtful points!


(delete)on 02/12/2005 2:22:03 am ET

A good reply, with some excellent points. I don't recommend or use HBD here, because of the high price and limited life when exported to Australia. I agree that pellets are made from grain - but the fat content is markedly reduced compared to the original seed, and there are other ingredients. But I take your point.
I agree that fresh is best, and I don't believe that pellets - of any brand - are an ideal, stand-alone, food. But, the reality is that for many of my clients, feeding the bird is one of many tasks that have to be done before heading off to work or school. They want/need something simple and easy to prepare, and pellets offer that - and are far healthier than the bags of seed sold in petshops and supermarkets. I would rather they fed a formulated diet than a seed diet.
When I do see that rare client that is prepared to put the time and effort into preparing a daily diet for their bird, my discussion runs along the same lines as yours. Maybe a few less seeds! :-)
I live in a parrot-rich environment - I have wild galahs, cockatoos, red-rumps, rosellas and lorikeets in my back yard every day. They're not eating grain (none around)... :-)There is a big difference between seeding plants and ripened seeds in a bag.
You could, I suppose, classify parrots as seed-eaters. I suppose our difference of opinion might actually be along the lines of "what is a seed?"
My emphasis is that the ripened, high fat, low protein, low vitamin & mineral seeds that are sold as "bird food" is not a healthy diet, and we need to educate our clients that seed is NOT a natural food for these birds. In Australia, we've had parrots for millions of years. We've only had agricultural grains & seed for 217 years.
>>> It seems likely that there is less difference in our opinions that one might think. <<<
I think you're right - we might have to tighten up our definitions!
All the best!
(delete)BVSc FACVSc (Avian Health)



(delete)on 02/12/2005 11:10:41 am ET
>>> the last time I evaluated the nutritional content of a sunflower seed, it had 8 times the protein content of a millet seed; thus the comment that they are higher in protein. I like to feed sunnies since they are a good source of fat and protein, but not too many in a day… perhaps 6 for a Quaker each day. <<<
From The Large Macaws: Sunflower seed has 22.7% protein, 18.7% carbohydrate, 49.5% fat by analysis. Unfortunately, the TYPE of sunflower seed analyzed was not commented on. But, from my perspective, I would expect that this is the oil seed, not the meat seed, which has about 20% fat content from my recollection.
Not all sunflower seeds are created equal...
(delete), DVM
Diplomate, ABVP, ECAMS
Certified in avian practice

[catfish]

Parrot Nutrition


From The Pet Care Forum: J. BeauSoleil

Ask a non-bird person to describe a parrot's diet and they will invariably say 'seeds,' as this is what is commonly seen lining pet store shelves and offered in bird dishes. Feeding seed and nuts to pet store birds is done mainly for an aesthetic and tidy appearance to the viewing public, and is easily fed, which reduces amount of work by staff. The "uninformed" buyer mistakenly believes this is the standard diet of pet parrots, and is often sent on their way with new bird, cage, toys, bottle of vitamins, and a variety of seeds, with very few (if any) other instructions. Although a parrot can be sustained for a time on this marginal seed diet, eventually deficiencies will occur along with health problems and shortened lifespan.
Early studies found parrots which fared best in health and longevity were those that ate a variety of foods, often dining with their owners at mealtimes. Their plumage was much better, activity level higher, with fewer health problems than their seed-eating cousins.
VITAMIN DEFICIENCIES
Vitamin A is the most common deficiency seen in pet parrots, particularly those on seed-based, marginal diets. Vitamin A is necessary to boost the immune system and protect against bacterial infections. Birds deficient in Vitamin A do not have the protective mucous lining their complex sinus, respiratory, reproductive and digestive system, which allows harmful bacteria to penetrate the tissues causing secondary infections. An immune-suppressed, deficient bird does not have the ability to fight off these invasive pathogens.
Since the upper respiratory system and sinus cavity are most frequently affected, white plaques can often be seen on roof of mouth or base of tongue. These plaques can form abscesses, which affect the bird's ability to breathe and swallow and may advance to other organs of the body if left untreated,and ultimately cause death.

Symptoms of bacterial infections include sneezing, labored breathing with wheezing sound, nasal discharge and crustiness, swelling around cere and eyes, slimy mouth, lethargy, poor appetite, diarrhea, weight drop, usually accompanied with foul smelling breath, sometimes described as a pungent garlic smell. There are many gram negative (occasional positive) bacterial infections, so the only reliable way to determine which kind of bacterium are present and what antibiotics will effectively treat the infection, is to have a culture and sensitivity (Cand S) test done. The choanae (throat) and cloaca (vent) are swabbed with Q-tips, which are sent to the lab where aculture is grown in medium to determine which bacterium are present. Once it is determined what type of pathogens are present, sensitivity tests are run to find out which antibiotics will effectively kill the organisms. Cultures and sensitivity tests are usually run in conjunction with a CBC (complete blood count) to get a baseline for overall infection.
VITAMIN ADDITIVES
Vitamins come in powder and liquid form. Powdered vitamins are sometimes added to seed but are of little value since the powder falls to the bottom of the bowl, uneaten. Also the few vitamins which may adhere to the seeds are not ingested since parrots shell (husk) their seeds, eating only the inner portions.
Water-soluble vitamins create a medium for bacterial growth if drinking water is not frequently changed throughout the day. Also a bird will often refuse to drink water containing additives, so even though available, the vitamins aren't doing any good if not consumed. Vitamins cannot be accurately administered unless mixed in with moist foods, with careful attention to exact amounts so as to not over- or under-supplement in conjunction with other foods available in the diet. Vitamins are not needed and should not be given if majority of diet consists of highly fortified bird pellets.
FOODS HIGH IN VITAMIN A
Fresh veggies need to be included as portion of overall daily diet, so choose those which are high in Vitamin A such as dark leafy greens such as broccoli, spinach (limited amounts), kale, dandelion greens (untreated); as well as the orange carotene veggies such as carrots and yams. Other food sources high in Vitamin A are fresh or dried chili peppers and egg yolk.
Fruits are highly favored by birds and may be eaten to the exclusion of all other foods and can dilute nutrients they need. They should be limited to occasional treats of papaya, mango and cantaloupe (all of which are high in Vitamin A). As far as I know, there is no nutritional requirement for other types of fruits, including citrus. Sometimes cod liver oil is mixed to seed for added Vitamin A but can quickly turn rancid and kill the bird, so is not recommended.
FOODS THAT ARE NO-NOS
Pet birds can eat most foods that we ourselves enjoy. However there are some, because of toxic properties or enzymes that cannot be fed to birds. First on the list and known killers are chocolate and avocado. Chocolate contains active ingredients of theophylline and caffeine and can cause hyperactivity, vomiting, diarrhea, seizures, and cardiac arrest (death) even if given in small amounts.
Avocado is said to contain enzymes which are not tolerated by birds' digestive systems. Some claim the outer portion of the avocado meat is okay, but the portion closest to the seed is deadly to birds. Not knowing where this fine line is drawn, it's best to NOT take any risks.
Also because of intolerance of enzymes and acids, raw pineapple and raw tomatoes are not recommended. Although not known to be deadly, they may in fact upset the bird's inability to properly digest these foods. Dried pineapple is available in many parrot mixes and considered safe, as is cooked tomato used in pasta sauces.
Other foods that should be limited or eliminated from the parrot's diet are foods that contain sugar, salt, oils, or caffeine. Birds also have the inability to properly digest lactose in dairy products with exception of yogurt and hard cheese, which are good food choices in limited amounts.
Nuts, highly favored by birds, contain a lot of fat and should be limited to occasional treats. Almonds are said to contain less fat and provide added calcium to the diet and are the recommended choice.
PELLETS
With avian nutrition in its infancy during the mid-to-late 1980s, some manufacturers started combining dry food ingredients, along with vitamins and minerals, pressed into pellet form. This revolutionalized food form would provide most or all of the parrot's daily dietary requirements, make it easy for owner to feed, and keep the area tidy.
However, unlike other animals which select foods by smell, parrots select foods visually. These unfamiliar-looking pellets were quickly rejected by birds that were accustomed to eating seed and nuts. Gradual conversion is time-consuming but necessary to provide the best optimum diet for the pet bird. The most effective conversion method is to remove seed first thing in morning, replace with pellets for several hours, then return seed later in the afternoon.
Nowadays there are many types of pellets available; some which contain no preservatives, are quite expensive and must be refrigerated; others are more reasonably priced and come in fruit flavor and shapes which visually appeal to the parrot. Sometimes it takes experimenting with several different types to find the one (or more) that the parrot will actually eat. All parrot pellets are scientifically formulated to meet the birds' daily requirements, so the object is to find which ones the bird will actually eat.
Many breeders nowadays start their weaning babies out on pellets so conversion is not necessary. Quite by accident several years ago I found grinding pellets in the blender into a powder form was quickly devoured by weaning cockatiel babies. When these babies were turned lose into the flights with resting breeders, the breeders too ate the ground pellets with the same enthusiasm as their chicks.
The amazons had been converted to pellets many years ago, but they would pick their favorite color (or shape) to eat and discard the rest. Or they would bite down on a pellet and most would go flying out of the cage onto the floor. Desiring to cut down on the waste, I started feeding the ground pellets to the amazons, and surprisingly they eat them much more readily than when in whole form. The ground pellets can also be added to birdie bread (cornbread), scrambled eggs, cooked dried beans or brown rice for variety and optimum nutrition.

Typically for my Amazons, I feed approximately:25 percent pellets

25 percent orange and leafy green veggies

25 percent cooked dried beans, brown rice, scrambled egg

15 percent quality seed bread

10 percent nuts (almonds), spray millet, pinenuts or safflower

[YWallpaper]

It is fantastic to see the opinions of well informed avian professionals on this site!! There is so much unfounded chatter online, and I have been very concerned myself about feeding my yellow parrotlet a pellet diet. After consulting my own avian vet, and reading this discussion, I feel much better about my decision to feed a pellet diet.

[Mustang99]

Catfish ... thanks for some great information...great read!

[memmey]

You go Catfish.Now that is interesting information. I scanned it fast does it mention anywhere HOW to get B'Jo to eat the GOOD stuff?????*L*

[catfish]

See, this makes you feel better, but it causes me more headache.... I've been an advocate of varied diets and seed w/o pellets for the most part.

I'm just not sure right now which I should do. I see the information. I preach the information for other birds. Now I have a game of Russian Roulette I can play, which could potentially risk Hpnotiq's life.

One hand we have a seed based diet which may cause fatty liver disease... on the other hand we may face kidney disease if we feed pellet. The onlly sure thing is a varried diet supplemented with another food source.

So the question circles back to "Pellets better? Seeds better? Both? Pellet>Seed? Seed>Pellet?" HEADACHE

[catfish]

You go Catfish.Now that is interesting information. I scanned it fast does it mention anywhere HOW to get B'Jo to eat the GOOD stuff?????*L*


On diet: Ideally, this bird should be transitioned to a purely pellet and veggie diet. It takes a bit of work on the owner's part. We recommend spending 10 minutes or so a day doing some "foraging exercises" with the bird. This involves laying out some pellets on a towel with the bird, out away from the cage and distractions. If the wings are clipped, this should be considered (unless the bird is very tame).
Then you just flip the pellets about and peck and click your nails together, etc., to simulate another bird feeding. Some lovebirds respond better by doing this in the palm of your hand with the bird perched on the edge. At any rate, once the bird is eating some of the pellets, the seed is removed, but the owner watches fecal output to make sure the bird is still eating something.

Vegetables can be introduced the same way. IME, slivered or grated veggies are more accepted by smaller birds. They seem easier to manipulate. For owners or birds your not sure about, you can always board the bird in the clinic and do the job.

[catfish]

This is our dialogue for conversion. Some clients try to cut corners and put 1/2 seed and 1/2 formulated diet. Problem is that the half seed is a ten day supply often. The client must also show "leadership" to help the conversion:
Seed diets are deficient in most major nutrients and contain excessive fat for the pet bird. Formulated Diets (extruded, pellets, crumbles etc) are designed in an attempt to provide a balanced diet to your bird
HOW TO CONVERT YOUR PET BIRD TO A FORMULATED DIET: Our target amount is 80-90% of the diet as fed. The key to conversion is initially limiting the seed quantity available to your bird to one-half of what the bird will eat per day. What is that amount? To find out:
1) Measure, in teaspoons or tablespoons quantity of seed mix you place in clean cage first thing in the morning. IMPORTANT: ALL SEED (including millet spray and seed trees) MUST BE INCLUDED IN YOUR MEASUREMENTS!!!
2) The next morning (24 hours later) measure, in teaspoons or tablespoons quantity of seed mix which is left uneaten.
3) Subtract remainder from the initial quantity to determine the actual amount of seed your bird eats in 24 hours.
4) Start feeding ONLY one half of the calculated amount of seed to your bird on a daily basis. Place an equal quantity of the new formulated diet (Harrison's, Roudybush, etc.) in the same bowl.
5) Gradually, over a number of days, decrease the seed percentage.
Worried your bird isn't eating enough? Solution: track your pet's weight. Buy a food or postal scale (or better yet a digital scale). Mark or record the initial weight. Then weigh your bird every morning. During conversion, we can easily accept a 5% weight loss. A 10% weight loss, except with obese birds, is excessive over a short time.
Most birds on formulated diets will tend to be a little leaner, due to a lower fat diet. They will, however, continue to have a regular dropping output, containing both green feces and white urates (kidney waste). ****Important Note- the above conversion program is to be started ONLY with a bird that is not underweight and is not sick. If your bird is currently under our care with an illness- DO NOT START the conversion program- do ask us when to start it. You can, however, offer some of the new food as a side item.****

[catfish]

PaulPion: Welcome to Sunday Night Rounds. Tonight Join AF, DVM, DABVP, for Pet Avian Clinical Nutrition! "A" is a longtime VIN consultant - avian medicine. He has an all exotic practice in CA adjacent to the California Avian Laboratory that he founded and operates. See http://home.surewest.net/avianlab/ (http://www.vin.com/WebLink.plx?URL=http://home.surewest.net/avianlab/) for more about the laboratory and the services Alan and his team provide. And with that, I'll turn the microphone over to Alan.

AF: Good Evening. Ever since pet avian medicine became a following 30-40 years ago, veterinary clinicians have recognized that malnutrition is a serious problem in our patients. For 50 years, dog and cat diets have been in the mass market, enhanced by years of good research. The same is true for commercial poultry, however pet avian medicine literature contains very little in the way of nutritional needs studies. Certainly our pathology reports have provided important information along with astute clinical observations. And, in my specialty practice, way over half of new clients are feeding just seed and claim to know nothing is amiss.
Gang, with the go-ahead, please answer this in short phrases - any and all history or clinical signs (physical exam) data that might be associated with malnutrition (example: easily fractured bone) - go ahead [this is a blanket ga to any and all takers].
PaulPion: poor feather condition
CailinHeinze: blunted choanal papilla
ToddGray: overgrown beak; liver disease
WilliamWhite: obesity
CailinHeinze: decreased immune system
KerryMilliken: oral abscesses
ChristineFernandez: upper respiratory disease
AF: Those are all good and common ones; yes liver disease can be histologically proven to be nutritional sometimes; URI - as it relates to Vit A of epi linings YES. Any other organ systems come to mind?
S: heart
Will: goiter from iodine deficiency
Cailin: integument
Kerry: digestive--oral cavity--squamous metaplasia
Chic: respiratory
Christine: gout
AF: S - elaborate on the heart.
S: cardiomyopathy? just a thought, e.g., mynah
AF: Yes gout at least in budgies, squamous tubular metaplasia assoc with Vit A def. How about reproductive tract?
Christinne: egg binding
Cailin: egg binding
Kerry: just had one-egg binding
Chuck: hyper estroginism e.g. feather picking, etc
AF: I am convinced that a vast majority of dystocias and related sx are preventable via diet alone. So what constitutes a good diet? Veterinarians who work with my laboratory know that they will be asked (during a lab consult) what is the patient's diet? Sometimes I have heard "he's on a good diet." To which I reply, what is the diet? (Checking the patient record)- "oh the client says it is on a good diet - but I don't know what it would be."
Unfortunately, most bird owners, unless they are working with an up to date veterinarian or are plugged into good information from a retailer (uncommon), a book (Birds for Dummies) or internet (good and bad information there), are probably poorly informed. I believe this starts with poor understanding of even human nutrition by many pet owners.
In the 1970's and 1980's we had the safflower seed based seed mixes (Toppers et al) touted by many, including "leading veterinarians." This was the solution for the "cholesterol and narcotics" of sunflower. Well of course there was no truth to these marketing lies nor was the total fat lower. Powders mixed in with oil were supposed to provide micronutrients. Well they didn't. Mr. Topper is gone and that diet concept is pretty much behind us. And for years, the "progressive" advice was to feed lots of fruits and vegetables (in addition to seed).
Gang - in short answers speak up - what do fruits and vegetables provide or what don't they provide (to "enhance" the seed diet)? Go ahead....
Christine: vitamin A
Cailin: water soluble vitamins, also vit A; need a lot of veggies to off-set the fat in the seed
William: fruits are high in glucose
AF: Christine name some produce sources of Vit A; question is positive and negative benefits of fruits and vegetables?
Christine: not good sources of lysine or protein; squash sweet potato bell peppers are Vit A sources.

AF: Yes Christine, I would like to point out that typical American fruits are overrated for nutrition - Vit C need is debatable; sugars; high phosphorus. Yes the orange vegetables offer an advantage.

Todd: what about calcium?

AF: Fruits are upside down regarding CA. Fruits make a seed-based CA deficiency WORSE!! Kale collards mustard; almonds (a little); dairy products (watch out for the fat) -sources of calcium.

Chuck: some greens are good for CA

AF: What concerns me about excessive vegetables also - is they are also mostly carbs

Todd: exactly, most fruits don't provide much

Christine: most are bound with oxalic acid are they not?

AF: Oxalates- spinach, chard, bok choy- okay to feed but don't overdo.
Okay when you draw and submit a blood panel on an avian patient, whose nutritional history is substandard, what information (short answers) can you extract from the blood panel to support this?

William: hypoproteinemia

AF: Okay but I don't think we can quantitative - other than starvation

Christine: paucity of gram positive bacteria in fecal sample

AF: Christine - the gram stain issue regarding nutrition is a bit controversial and one that I am not convinced is reliable.

Kerry: elevated liver values

AF: Kerry can you be more specific?

Kerry: elevated AST

AF: How about the hemogram? Kerry- what in the malnutrition history would be responsible for AST elevation?

Ted: anemia

Kerry: Hi fat--seed can predispose to fatty liver syndrome

AF: Yes but while we aren't doing clin path tonight, we can list many causes of AST elevation including non-hepatic (e.g. skeletal/cardiac muscles).

Well for the hemogram - a non-regenerative anemia could be consistent with starvation. My point in the panel is that precious little in the blood panel provides scientific evidence of malnutrition - the history and physical are the most important. Certainly we can discuss plasma calcium but of course we aren't measuring total body calcium and hypocalcemic tetany (clinical signs/ low CA) will correlate with history.
Following cues from the Latin American "peasant diet" cooked beans, rice and corn diets are touted as healthy for birds. As a sole diet what positive OR negative items can you list about such a diet?

Christine: high in phosphorus

AF: Thanks Christine - I take that as negative

JT: corn good protein

Chuck: cheap... but poor diet

Cailin: can have good protein, but lots of carbs, and sugar (corn)

JT: bad carbs

Kerry: where is the vitamin A? promotes obesity

AF: Corn is incomplete protein other than "high Lysine" strains served up by international aids groups to farmers.

Christine: but a reasonably good low fat source of protein.

AF: Correct virtually no vit A; CA/P ratio upside down. Yes lower fat; but we all know too much pasta can end up on your belly. The kidney type beans (I was inferring) would constitute a complete protein source. But the human diet books will often condemn such a food as another carbo. So we have most of our energy from CHOs

Kathy: Rice and beans combined are supposed to make a more complete protein than either contributes separately.

AF: A bit better than all fat. But still too much CHOs. I am fine with such a food stuff as long as it represents a small % of total diet. So I will assume that everyone here is familiar with formulated diets. A couple of examples are cat chow and dog chow. In the trade, the same types of products for birds are referred to as "pellets." Unfortunately virtually none of the products are labeled as pellets and most of them aren't really pellets (but rather extruded and other processes). This adds to further client confusion.
Well our goal is to promote the idea of formulated diets as "bird chow or bird food" relegating seed mixes as a side dish or a treat, not unlike a bowl of "mixed nuts" for us. And since these products have been around for 15-20 years, why are they a well-kept secret among many bird owners? Well try to find them in supermarket or superstore chains. Even the large pet store chains - who have great info on their websites on proper nutrition, take a minimalist approach in practice- offering little selection, usage (in their livestock) or recommendation for such products. Why is this so? I presume that because seeds sell good. This may well mean that you may need to carry a product or at least be able to refer your clients to a retailer who does.

JT: seed diets cheaper to sell

AF: I might suggest better profit margin but I am not sure that is the case. I call it a case of folklore (creation of the seed mix for " ___") and tradition: not science and nutrition.

Cailin: I worked at a large pet store, we fed pellets exclusively, and carried 6 brands. People still bought seed preferably if I didn't interrogate them first! They would ask what the "Trix" cereal was for!

AF: The big change is retailers selling properly weaned birds that are eating these better products. The marketing is confusing - for example Zupreme (popular in my area) - is called Fruit Treat - many people think it is a fruit substitute not a "complete diet" like a dog chow. By answering Y or N, how many carry these products for sale in their practices?
Ted: n
Janice: y
Todd: y
Kenneth: y
Richard: n
JT: n
Chuck: n
Christine: n
Charles: y
Susan: n
Cindy: y until I sold practice
Mary: y, sort of
Cailin: student
William: we don't see birds yet
AF: It can be a good service and what I see probably better margin than those dog/cat products that compete with other retailers (Rx diets, premium dog food etc).

JT: Alan, could it also be a lack of advertising... we see "Puppy chow" commercials every day on TV, but never anything for the avian patient...

AF: Unfortunately part of the "bird pellet" industry is a mom and pop sort of thing and the bigger ones are marketed through the chains - where as I said talk a good story on their websites but ignore the products in the store.

JT: So was Purina when it first started...

AF: Yes - I can almost remember when dog food was uncommon and knew old vets who used to see all sorts of dog/cat diseases due to serious malnutrition because these pets weren't being fed commercial rations.

William: Who is doing research on avian diets, and can you recommend some good brands?

AF: Sadly very little research; many testimonials. Roudybush did a bunch 15-20 yrs ago but the products are quite different than before. Some of the major brands will sponsor "aviculturalist trials" but it becomes testimonial. Ideally checks written to university research would be ideal. On the flipside problems good/bad performance noted by clinicians/pathologists-some of this gets back to manufacturers who make changes.

Mary: But how many universities have avian programs besides poultry?

AF: Mary if you are talking avian clinical (pet avian) - not enough but it is improving but our ABVP- Avian types aren't nutritionists by training.

Kerry: my hospital just started carrying Harrison's and LaFaber's nutriberry and pellet products--the patients seems to like them, and so do the owners but we just recently started. Any comments?

JT: Ted LaFaber was a pioneer in this, but a lot of his work was limited to his patients, rest his soul.

AF: We have experienced more renal problems with 100% LaF pellets but I don't recommend anyone's brand 100% (none are perfect for your species ... yet). You will be able to download my handout for the brands we "approve" the url later in the rounds

Cailin: if you are carrying HBD, does it "cheapen" it to also sell Exact, or Roudybush? Or can you sell a few different ones, plus HBD?

AF: My practice sells HBD, did sell Roudybush but I am impatient regarding customer service. I think Tom Roudybush is a brilliant scientist and they have good products. We recommend but don't sell them now... Also sold Hagen - but even though good product less interest. HBD is most expensive due to "organic ingredients" While I won't personally pay 3x for an organic apple, I explain to clients the reason for the cost and don't make any claims about the organic other than product performs well (as do several others).

JT: Alan, do you see other diseases (besides the renal ) or behavioral problems in patients on 100 % pelleted diets?

AF: Renal is the biggie and can be fatal if not recognized soon enough - PU is typical clinical sign, followed by uric acid elevation.
So we get to conversion to these diets. Some practices offer an inpatient package- which can be a good service. And there are many tips out there. The information that goes out on our computer record (don't worry if you can't digest it all now- you can get the rounds archives from VIN):
Seed diets are deficient in most major nutrients and contain excessive fat for the pet bird.
Formulated Diets (extruded, pellets, crumbles etc) are designed in an attempt to provide a balanced diet to your bird.
HOW TO CONVERT YOUR PET BIRD TO A FORMULATED DIET:
Our target amount is 80% of the diet as fed. The key to conversion is initially limiting the seed quantity available to your bird to one-half of what the bird will eat per day. What is that amount? To find out: 1) Measure, in teaspoons or tablespoons quantity of seed mix you place in clean cage first thing in the morning. IMPORTANT: ALL SEED (including millet spray and seed trees) MUST BE INCLUDED IN YOUR MEASUREMENTS!!!
2) The next morning (24 hours later) measure, in teaspoons or tablespoons quantity of seed mix which is left uneaten.
3) Subtract remainder from the initial quantity to determine the actual amount of seed your bird eats in 24 hours.
4) Start feeding ONLY one half of the calculated amount of seed to your bird on a daily basis. Place an equal quantity of the new formulated diet (Harrison's, Roudybush, etc.) in the same bowl.
5) Gradually, over a number of days, decrease the seed percentage.

Worried your bird isn't eating enough? Solution: track your pet's weight. Buy a food or postal scale (or better yet a digital scale). Mark or record the initial weight. Then weigh your bird every morning. During conversion, we can easily accept a 5% weight loss. A 10% weight loss, except with obese birds, is excessive over a short time.
Most birds on formulated diets will tend to be a little leaner, due to a lower fat diet. They will, however, continue to have a regular dropping output, containing both green feces and white urates (kidney waste).
**** Important Note: the above conversion program is to be started ONLY with a bird that is not underweight and is not sick. If your bird is currently under our care with an illness - DO NOT START the conversion program - do ask us when to start it. You can, however, offer some of the new food as a side item. ****
It is not uncommon for clients to try to cut corners and skip the directions - we do document they got them (in their computer medical record) and on followup phone checks - will determine from their answers if they have followed the advice. Our biggest concern is small birds that don't recognize the diet as food and are offered nothing else initially and starve to death due to poor compliance (:(:(:
An Adobe Acrobat copy of the current care and feeding handout I use is available at: http://home.surewest.net/avianlab/AMCCARE.pdf (http://home.surewest.net/avianlab/AMCCARE.pdf)
There are certainly other approaches. Anyone care to share theirs?

Kathy: IME - if you can convert a bird to sprouted seed, they will convert to pellets more easily.

Chuck: I agree with you. I remember when Wm Morrison Jr. gave lectures on dog nutrition on dog nutrition. Same problem now. Hang in there. I know you are on the right tract.

AF: Kathy as far as sprouted seed, I have no current experience but I no longer eat nor recommend alfalfa sprouts etc due to enteropathic E coli, Salmonella and Campylobacter-associated outbreaks.

JT: we crush the pelleted diet and put it over a favorite fruit or vegetable... a la shake and bake...

Cailin: I like to feed more people food, preferably hand fed while the person is eating it...then start adding pellets.

AF: I like to tell clients that half is the leadership challenge - the parrot already assumes they are boss of the house and owner typically reinforces that. They need to take charge and be the boss. Again Birds for Dummies book great help

William: during the Avian Fund course, Dr. Speer 'guarantees' in-hospital conversion or 'he eats the boarding fees'.

AF: Yes other clinicians offer the same and are always successful. We don't officially offer this service but end up doing it sometimes when patient there for something else. And always are successful.
I would like to caution to limit the people food in long run because the "boss" meaning the parrot will choose heavily the empty calories (starches and fats) And finally as you will see in the above handout, we don't recommend 100% formulated diet. Conversely, diluting the diet too much (often with empty fats and starches) will lessen the overall nutritional delivery. These diets aren't perfect- and unfortunately kidney disease can occur in some species with some products fed exclusively- often marked by polyuria for starters.

Cailin: are you familiar with Beak Appetite food? My cockatiel loves it, she gets that, veggies, beans, and HDB.

AF: Cailin I am not - is it marketed as a "complete diet"?

Cailin: no, I don't think so. but it seems pretty good to me by human nutrition standards... she gets it as part of a diet.

AF: I would like to point out 30 years the feds started requiring dog/cat food to be balanced diet because Kitty Queen chopped liver was killing cats. We have no regs nor standards for birds

Christine: Have you seen any correlation between pancreatitis and a pelleted diet fed almost exclusively? I believe it is HBD fed to a Macaw.

AF: Christine - we don't have the k9 model for pancreatitis in birds - and there are many etiologies - but no I cannot say that. And w/o histo you cannot characterize the pancreas and well as SA clinicians feel they can with non-invasive diagnostics.

Kerry: I know that this is off the beaten track, but I am rescuing a 3 year-old emu what has been fed cracked corn for the past year. I ordered the Mazuri emu maintenance pellets to try to convert, but it's been very difficult finding out nutritional specifics for ratites. Any suggestions?

AF: Mazuri emu has performed well - however the caloric balance for such a diet should vary with the clime. Start with alfalfa offerings.

Richard: who is the publisher for Birds for Dummies?

AF: used to be IDG press now Hungry Minds. Good to sell in practice. If you order 20 copies you get the good price. Also have Iguanas for Dummies now

Richard: thanks... price range?

Cailin: 19.99 retail.

AF: you are looking at about 11-12 bucks including UPS your cost.
TaskeenTharianimirza: any recommendations for a formulated diet for pigeons?

AF: Ah pigeons and their owners who know more than DVM/VMDs! The traditional pigeon diets have problems in my opinion. Since most of my pigeon patients are cherish pets (other than the $10000 racer) I recommend a crumbled pet bird formulated diet. I think it is important to use handouts - I prefer to write my own but note Kathy Lyon is here- she runs the AAV office that offers quite a few AAV topic handouts.

Kathy: 21 titles, to be exact.

Taskeen: any makes in particular that are better suited to their needs?

AF: They have done well on mostly Roudybush or Harrison's to name a couple.

Richard: Kathy: can we get them on the web site?

Kathy: I will be posting an order form next week, but for now, you can read titles and call our office. The URL for the AAV website is http://www.aav.org/ (http://www.vin.com/WebLink.plx?URL=http://www.aav.org/)

AF: Note that they are a fund-raising item for the AAV
WilliamWhite: how much difference is there in pellets for parrots, conures, budgies, etc, i.e. are they very different?

AF: Good question - in most cases the difference is only size. But for example sunflower based seed mix is 50 +/- % fat; "form diets" are 5-6 % and macaws often need more; 'toos and ams we try to limit extra beyond the form diet. We are seeing emergence of "species specific diets like Kaytee Macaw (higher fat) and Pretty Bird African ("more digestible calcium") but based on concepts rather than hard research. Most of the time it is a picture of a parrot on the bag but still more valid than cockatiel mix, budgie seed mix, parrot seed mix

William: thanks, appreciate it.

JT: Alan do you think it might be possible that, like some dog foods and dog breeds, some species can not handle the "Basic" formulation of Protein and CHO, thus the renal or other diseases?

AF: I suspect with time we will see some of that (based on hard science). But realize you have 50 brands of dog food that are pretty darn good and they know exactly what the species (if not the breed) needs. We are far from that but have come a long way in 20 years - much more to go. Your mission as clinicians is to help your clients care for their family members better (you already knew that).

JT: :-)

William: Silly question, but do you see food hypersensitivity in psit's?

AF: Based on skin/feather follicle biopsies - macaws are high on suspicion list and clinical response to removal of seeds (to which I will speculate mycotoxins may play a role. Also Tom Tully at LSU and Pat Whirter (Melbourne Aust) doing skin testing with interesting results (last few years of AAV proceedings US. Euro AAV and Aust AAV meeting)

Richard: got to go, thanks Alan! great addition to the Avian Fundamentals course.

JT: we had a B&G Macaw allergic to Pine Nuts... again I suspect a mycotoxin there.

AF: Pine Nuts have a holy status because of the thick billed parrot natural history but they are mostly fat and hard to imagine an important diet component. Mycotoxin testing (you need to know which to ask for) often available at your state dx lab. We used to do an ELISA (in our lab) years ago made for feed corn and every seed mix sample tested exceeded federal req for corn.

JT: Thanks Alan...

Taskeen: Can you clarify what test we should ask for if we send of a sample?

AF: No I can't - it depends on the situation. Ask the toxicologist. For example those darned walnut shells make toxin and may be different from say corn. There are several types and whether you are testing liver, kidney, or feed etc. And my lab doesn't run these mycotoxin assays - state labs.

Taskeen: I was thinking more of feed.

AF: Again you would best ask your govt lab what they have available. Also chain of custody issues - ideally unopened pkg for assay.

Kathy: g'night, Alan. great program!

Cailin: thanks! look forward to reading your handouts!

Taskeen: thanks

Christine: thanks for all of the information and comments!

Paul: super job alan -- thanks!

Kenneth: thanks, good night all.

Chuck: GREAT job!! thanks, Alan...

Kathy: great session, thank you!
William: good-nite, Alan and all. enjoyed it.
AF: good nite all! thanks and have nice PM

[catfish]

This is all I can find for now. I've put off doing a journal article review to do this, but now i HAVE to go do my homework. . . I love procrastinating, I'm very good at it.

If you all want me to look up more stuff post it and I'll see what I can do! Oh and Art, I'll get your recipe to you, I haven't forgotten.

[cute_lil_fiend]

HOW TO CONVERT YOUR PET BIRD TO A FORMULATED DIET:

Our target amount is 80% of the diet as fed. The key to conversion is initially limiting the seed quantity available to your bird to one-half of what the bird will eat per day. What is that amount? To find out:1) Measure, in teaspoons or tablespoons quantity of seed mix you place in clean cage first thing in the morning. IMPORTANT: ALL SEED (including millet spray and seed trees) MUST BE INCLUDED IN YOUR MEASUREMENTS!!!

2) The next morning (24 hours later) measure, in teaspoons or tablespoons quantity of seed mix which is left uneaten.

3) Subtract remainder from the initial quantity to determine the actual amount of seed your bird eats in 24 hours.

4) Start feeding ONLY one half of the calculated amount of seed to your bird on a daily basis. Place an equal quantity of the new formulated diet (Harrison's, Roudybush, etc.) in the same bowl.

5) Gradually, over a number of days, decrease the seed percentage.


I just thought I'd share something I was thinking about as I read this part of the post shared by catfish. I know that my bird eats seeds, but leaves the husks in the food dish for the most part, so instead of measuring by the spoon, I think it might be better to weigh the seed before and after to give me a more accurate idea of how much he's is eating.

[catfish]

Well, I think he is implying you have to remove the hulls from there. The amont you would be weighing would not register on any typical scale you would get at the stores, especially the amount givent to a p'let.

[Pado]

Catfish that was a brilliant piece of information :) - being able to read that was really very interesting. I for one would love to have you post more.

What I took away from it was the Veterinarians themselves are at odds to the proper diet for pet birds - Which supports what we have all heard - that their is no known "completely balanced" Pet Parrot food. So as far as I can gather its still best to feed a varied diet consisting of seed/pellets and fresh foods.

As the posts started out talking about Parrotlets eating Seed vs. Pellets. The original question stated:


i have been told that Parrotlet mutations (blues,yellows,whites) must be fed a seed diet ,as they are not able to process a protein diet. Would appreciate any feed back.

This is not my understanding as to why Parrotlets and especially Parrotlet Mutations should not be feed a complete Pellet diet. My understand is that because of their high metabolisms they eat more than the average bird pound for pound (or gram by gram :p ) and being on a "dry" Pellet diet they consume much more water than they were designed to consume - therefore drinking more water than they should in turn over works their Kidneys which leads to them having Kidney issues.

This isn't a question of Parrotlets being unable to process Protein - so the opening question is invalid to the Seed vs. Pellet diet in Parrotlets - Is it not?

Also the one Vet who is categorizing Parrots into Seed eating and non seed eating species, is generalizing IMO -
Lets say in his opinion a Parrotlet is a Seed eater (which to his point they are) - The African Senegal is considered a seed eating species also.

I've had both of these birds. My Senegal was on a Pellet diet. My Parrotlets aren't they are on the varied diet, which include Pellets. BUT my Senegal was a MUCH less active bird than my Parrotlets. My Parrotlets must burn -in my humble guess :rolleyes: - at least 5+ times more calories than my Senegal ever did - For the most part my Senegal sat most of the day messing with toys or sitting on me or moving about VERY slowly - even when fully flighted she VERY rarely flew

My Parrotlets on the other hand are all over the place and moving constantly.

Parrotlets need high energy foods - I think more so than an all Pellet diet can offer. This makes sense to me anyway.

[Pado]

Although I may need to rethink my smorgasbord way of feeding. What they stated about the bird seeming to be eating all the foods offered but what they probably are doing is only eating the tasty "high fat" portion that is in that particular food. - That makes sense -

To me my birds seem to be eating everything I offer but are they actually consuming everything or moving it about and actually only swallowing certain items in that food :confused:

I have noticed when I was preparing their Crazy Corn (an alternative to Beak Appetit) I usually add in rice. The last batch I made I did not add in the rice and the birds were just picking through the rest looking for the rice. Since there was no rice there they ate only a fraction of the time they normally spend eating it and usually its the pasta in the mix they like too.

Something to think about :eek: - I think I'll watch them more closely :p

[catfish]

See that's what I am thinking, they burn the extra calories by their activities. I had to wait until I got paid to go buy more beak appetite, so the plets have been on their seed and veggies lately, which makes me feel sad. I think I'll still feed as I have been with a little pellet available... daily seed, some beak appetite, and vegetables.

[Pado]

Exactly, :) so you can't put all seed eating birds into the same category - each species needs are different.
Plus the P'lets Kidneys can't handle the extra water processing.


On the Beak Appetit next time I get it (they will be on the Crazy Corn for a while as I have an unopened 3lb bag still :eek: ) I'm going watch to make sure they aren't only eating the seed items - I believe most of the Beak Appetit (if not all?) have different seed added.

[catfish]

While watching my two, they like the mash part of the nuts about alfredo. They only nibble on the vegetables... I love watching them eat, it's so cute when they fling the food and rub beaks.

I think once my quakers regain some body fat, I'll begin to try and switch them over to a pellet diet again. Last time, they lost too much weight and I had to stop. My female is really stubborn, the male was eating it, but not enough of it. I think he would only eat when he felt he had to.

[memmey]

You know this whole thread makes me crazy. Jo won't eat antyhing. I read this earlier and made her a dish of green beans squash blueberries pecans and purple grapes. Little chopped up bites. She touched nothing, in fact she acted all scared of it..... once again.
The mention of them being malnourished and having overgrown beaks, has freaked me out. She has always had beak issues. I read the green rump do have those anyway but it scares me. I have had her around 8 years maybe a little longer now and she has never eaten food good for her.
If I could only get her to eat something. If I put it on her seed then she throws it down and even with a tiny taste when she does thatdoes not get her to eat it.
What a world..what a world......

[Pado]

Don't fret Memmey - Jo's just stuck in her ways (aren't we all) - At least she's eating WAY better than she was when you found her ! Eh?

[catfish]

she may never eat anything but seed, but remember another vet did mention he had a quaker parrot (prone to fatty liver) come in that was 27 and only ate seed and seemed healthy.

I don't think your babe is bad off at all. Whats that saying? "You can lead a horse to water, but you cant force them to drink."

[memmey]

I think that is what her tatoo says. That little tramp.

[catfish]

OMG I really did laugh out loud at your comment... "little tramp" BWAHAHA now my birds are looking at me funny.:p

[tamnjo]

Here is a link, it's not vets but it has some good info.
http://www.parrotletranch.com/pellets.html

[IceQueen30]

These vets seem to approve pellet diets for parrotlet mutations which reassures me...at some point I was wondering if my breeder told me seed diet was bad only to sell me more pellets (no roudybush in pet shops...). Since a couple of weeks I noticed Caly didn't eat as much pellets as she used to so to make sure she doesn't stop to eat them completely I reduced the amount of seeds available...now she eats more pellets. Still...she's crazy of seeds when I give her some...I'd feel bad to completely cut seeds. Is a teaspoon of seeds an acceptable amount for a day? After she's done with her seeds she can eat pellets, beak appetit (not always but often), fresh vedgies and eggfood...So her daily diet is something like 20% seeds (sometimes less), 20% pellets (sometimes more), 30% beak appetit, 15% fresh vedgie/fruit and 15% eggfood...Is this a good diet or I should increase the amount of pellets compared to other things? I made so much effort to make her eat a good variety of stuff, I hope I haven't done that for nothing :o

[catfish]

Personally, I wouldn't feed all of one thing over another thing.

it sounds like you are giving a varied diet, which imo, is the key to a healthy bird.

I offer pellets, seed, and fruit and vegetables. The bulk of the diet is beak appetite, but they are offered all of the above.

[chapala]

RE the diet, it's good that you're feeding a variety, very important. However, I would up the fresh vegetables, and maybe reduce the egg food. Parrots don't need much animal protein. A teaspoon a week of cooked egg is a recommended amount for a 450 gram African Grey, so you can see that a tiny P'let would need very little, and certainly doesn't need it daily.

I feed no pellets at all to Cello, though I do have pellets in the dry mix for the big birds. I think they are okay as a small part of the diet. Lots of fresh vegetables are fed here, a little fruit, sprouted grains and legumes, a dry grain/seed mix, and a cooked grain/lentil/sweet potato mix. Parrotlets are such high energy birds, they can eat grain/seeds (less of the high fat seeds, more grains such as millet and oat groats) without gaining weight. I give Cello about 1 1/2 tsp. a day of the dry mix. He eats every bit of it, plus eats his other food well. I am amazed at how much such a tiny bird can eat! He gets millet sprays as training treats and loves them. He was on a seed only diet before I got him (a lousy mix at that), but he is eating well now.
Reta

[IceQueen30]

Thanks for Catfish and Chapala! It's so complicated to find the perfect diet for our birds! I did reduce the eggfood and beak appetite in the past days, I just have to be careful and not spoil her ALL the time with her favourite food :p She usually gets a fresh vedgie or fruit every day and I make her eat a little bit more pellets now...she also gets about 1 teaspoon of budgie seed every day and/or millet spray, since a while I also give her the beak appetit 'grass thing', she seems to love it :D

[SweetPeasMom]

GREAT JOB Catfish.. wow, now I feel better.

[NapoleonUWS]

I agree... varied diet is best... I asked my Avian Vet about pellets for my blue mutation and she said that they are fine for him. Seed, pellets, fresh veggies, fruit, grains, etc. are the way to go...

[unpoquito]

Information is quite confusing indeed. While I'd love for Emmie to eat a varied diet, right now, she only picks out sunflower seeds from her seed/pellet mix, and millet. She won't touch fresh fruit, vegies, oatmeal, potatoes, corn, etc, or store bought bird treats. So frustrating! I worry she's not eating enough. I mince everything and still, she won't eat it. I started putting millet in her cage every day b/c she'll eat that...is this a mistake?

[raiven]

Just keep offering the fresh food and eventually they will try it. You could try offering a sliver of red pepper or a pea pod or brocolli from your hand as a treat. That worked for Sadie. Now her first meal in the morning is five (kale, dandelion greens, cucumber, carrot, brocolli, red pepper, etc) or so veggies I put in a small food processor to chop them up. I sprinkle a bit of crushed TOPs oraganic pellets on top. She gets Harrison's pellets at supper. She loves that stuff for some reason. She also gets a bit of soaked seed or birdie bread from time to time and a chunk of kale to destroy. She is a good eater now who will eat a variety of healthy foods. :)

[chapala]

Information is quite confusing indeed. While I'd love for Emmie to eat a varied diet, right now, she only picks out sunflower seeds from her seed/pellet mix, and millet. She won't touch fresh fruit, vegies, oatmeal, potatoes, corn, etc, or store bought bird treats. So frustrating! I worry she's not eating enough. I mince everything and still, she won't eat it. I started putting millet in her cage every day b/c she'll eat that...is this a mistake?

Changing any parrot to a healthy diet takes patience. What you need to do is continue offering each and every day healthy food, whether or not she is eating it. Eventually it will look familiar and she will begin to eat it. If you quit offering, she never will. And, food processed or finely minced mixed with a food she likes is the best way to introduce new food, starting with a little bit at a time.
Reta

[Mustang99]

I have found recently that Kiwi loves cous cous and barley mixed with peas, corn, brocoli, carrots and red pepper. She'll fly over and eat a bit and fly off to the tree with the budgies and before you know it, she's back. I also put some kale and sweet potatoes in from time to time. She actually likes a huge piece of kale in a dish with water...she beats up on the kale and bathes at the same time...too funny!

[chapala]

I think that a lot of the cous-cous available is made from refined wheat grain though I believe a whole grain version is available. Pearl barley, the most common form that people use for stews, etc., is also refined, not a whole grain. Perhaps you could cook her up a batch of hulled millet, quinoa, rolled oats, and one more grain if you like (brown rice - cooks faster if soaked overnight, buckwheat, amaranth), plus some previously soaked lentils, then freeze in ice cube trays and pop into a freezer bag. Then you can defrost one at a time as needed overnight in the frig, and mix with all those healthy vegetables.
Reta

[unpoquito]

Thank you for the tips, everyone. I'll continue to offer fresh, healthy foods to her. I'm also going to order a better commercial diet online, as our feed stores don't seem to carry these. Emmie is getting used to me taking her out of her cage (w/ small hand towel). She no longer tries to nip or get away. She's such a delightful little bird.

[Dana D]

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.

I just brought my first Parrotlet, Lola, home 5 days ago. I too was sent home with a bag of Cockatiel seed & some fresh sprouted grass.

I have been on this website every night for 5 days READING EVERYTHING.

I now feel like I have a better idea of what Lola should be eating, rather than what I've been giving her. She loves the seed. I've also tried a cooked egg yolk, she didn't eat it. I also gave her some smashed organic strawberries, those were not touched either.

I will hit the supermarket tonight for some fresh veggies and search online for pellet as this sounds like a start in the right direction.

Again, thanks to all contributors. This novice appreciates it!

[chapala]

Hi Dana! Congratulations on your new P'let! Regarding food, remember that the bird needs to see the food over and over again so it becomes familiar. And, if you are going to feed pellets, I recommend Harrison's as a quality pellet with the best research and quality control. It's available either on-line or at some avian vets' offices.
Reta

[unpoquito]

Reta is right. My parrotlets have taken a long while to adjust to better foods, after being on a seed diet. They aren't real fond of fresh vegies and fruit, BUT they like cooked sweet potato and fresh cranberries now. They'll also eat some dried vegies, and cookied vegies in birdie muffins I make. They're on a pelleted diet. I give them Harrison's Lifetime Mash (which is basically crushed pellets) b/c they won't eat the Harrison's pellets. They do eat the mash. I also give them Zupreem fruity pellets and Roudybush pellets - they like these. I offer a mash of fresh vegies/fruits but they usually turn it down. They do like to eat some pasta now. They LOVE birdie bread, so I put tons of vegies/fruits in there. I also give bee pollen every day (by Goldenfeast), and organic flax seed (the eat the actual seeds). They now eat the Beak Appetite meals, which I feel are good. It's not a perfect diet, but MUCH better than where they started - they would only eat seeds for a long while. I imagine in time, they'll be eating more fresh vegies and fruits too. :) Just remember it takes time for these little birds to accept change, so be patient.

[Jordan S.]

What I don't like is that people always say "what do you like, seed diets or pellet diets". But neither is appropriate. A good diet for a parrotlet would be a sunflower-free cockatiel seed mixture,grated veggies,fruits,and egg food. plus a daily pinch of vitamin powder sprinkled over fresh food.

[wishingbee]

This has been a very, very helpful post. Thank you, Catfish!



(delete)on 02/09/2005 6:52:58 pm ET

...I think people food can be utilised to successfully feed a bird. My personal recommendation is to feed 60% good quality formulated diet, and 40% vegetables. Some specis like fruit, some seem to need it. But they don't get much - no more than 5%...

(delete)BVSc FACVSc (Avian Health)



I think this is where I'm going to hang my hat as far as my future parrotlet's diet goes.

While I will make as much of my bird's food as I can, it'll be helpful to feed something that I know has all of the recommended vitamins and minerals.. And if I ever get sick or go out of town, it'd be nice to have a simpler fallback food that my bird will recognize.

It'll be fascinating to watch the food industry evolve as more and more research comes out regarding bird nutrition. At this point I'll feel confident in feeding a good variety of food.

Very interesting material- thank you again for sharing this.

[sourberry]

Wow, wish i had read this sooner. Helping me understand the reasons behind the seed diet adversity and the rumours that mutations cant eat pellets. I really feel more secure now to follow through with a pellets diet with fresh veggies.

Now... if i could only do the same with my husband *wink wink*

[GRANNYAT50]

It is so confusing isn't it. My vet says that only pellets should be fed even with mutations she said the pellet deal is all a bunch of hooey. I got a pamphlet from her about harrisons and according to harrisons fresh foods will get your birds sick. I feed my little guys fresh veggies, fruit quinoa, beans, fruit and Goldenfeast Austrailan blend and things that has nuts and dried fruits and veggies. I try to feed pellets but my guys dont like them..When I bought seed mis and it had safflower seeds thats all Sprout wanted to eat. If you feed a straight seed blend there is too much fat.

[Maizie]

My older parrotlet won't eat pellets. The seller said he won't touch pellets and that veggies would have to be "force fed".
He will eat mashed banana and strawberries and other fruits (sweet tooth) but not vegetables.

[Sally]

I have never heard that! Fresh food will get your parrot SICK? Pretty wild! ha

[koolaidsmiiles]

wow very informative & confusing at the same time as i will be a new p'let owner soon. Sounds like a varied diet is best.

40% veggies
10% fruit
10% birdie bread
20% seed
20% pellet

how does that sound? what is beak appetite? sorry im a newbie lol ..
How much bird seed & OR pellets do you/should you feed in a day? measurements plz thanks :) greattttly appreciated

[Milliebird]

i have harrisons bird food amazing stuff it works great for everthing

[ChristineR]

My p'lets don't care too much for pellets, but they will eat the Harrison's mash. I think it's just basically ground pellets. I feed it in a separate cup. I also feed the Goldenfeast seed mixes.

[b_c]

Can someone please tell me how to feed quinoa to their bird? Is it like feeding them boiled pasta?
Thanks

[Tina&Jeremy]

Yep, just cook and serve warm or cooled. Our birds LOVE quinoa.